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Old 07-07-2013, 08:14 AM   #751
Rucksta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henshao View Post
Once you are leaning you have to countersteer to prevent the bike from falling on it's side .
I can turn at full lock and go round and round until I get dizzy or bored.
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Old 07-07-2013, 09:05 AM   #752
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Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post

Bikes that have to be held down with constant pressure on the bar is due to the geometry (mostly bikes that have a lot of trail built in for stability). How the suspension compresses in a turn and tire profile have a heavy effect on this too. When the front tire on my sportbike gets worn I have to hold it down into the turn. Its perfectly neutral with a new tire to the point I don't even need my hands on the handlebars.

I have 4 road bikes, an 08 KLR, 87 BMW R65, 02 BMW R1150R, and a 96 FLHTP. Each of these bikes will tend to right themselves and go straight as soon as I relax or release pressure on the bars.

I can't imagine riding a bike that was "neutral", if by "neutral" you mean it requires no effort to put it into a turn or hold it there.

I don't know enough about bike geometry to discuss specifics, but I do know that the gyroscopic effect of the front end geometry wants a moving bike to stay upright and run straight unless directed to do otherwise by the rider.

How much effort it takes to turn in or hold a turn can be debated, but if it requires no effort it would be a dangerous bike to ride, in my opinion.

I believe that many bike accidents that occur in curves are caused by a brief moment of panic when the rider thinks he can't make the turn, relaxes momentarily, and goes straight into a ditch, guardrail, oncoming auto, or whatever. Experienced riders will apply a bit more downward pressure on the down end of the bars and complete the turn.

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Old 07-07-2013, 09:20 AM   #753
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Originally Posted by Rucksta View Post
I can turn at full lock and go round and round until I get dizzy or bored.
Waiting for the video.
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Old 07-07-2013, 10:13 AM   #754
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Countersteering is a gentle press of the handlebar in the direction you want to go,and a press left/press right (or vice versa) constitutes a swerve around an object! A steady constant press is an awesome ride through a sweeping curve.

IrishJohn, your "instructor" is an idiot. By telling you that you'll crash if you don't understand the science behind it inidcates that he doesn't understand his trade. You already have the subconcious ability to perform the manuver but by making it a conscious thought process, you and every other non-physics major, get wrapped around the axle by the "why". Focus on what you know by practicing what you've aready done-and after your ride re-riide it it your head...

Asphalt dancing with your 2 wheeled dancer is a lifetime of pleasure and learning-and practicing makes you all the better as you begin to turn up the tempo!
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Old 07-07-2013, 11:52 AM   #755
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Originally Posted by Nevada1/2rack View Post
Countersteering is a gentle press of the handlebar in the direction you want to go,and a press left/press right (or vice versa) constitutes a swerve around an object! A steady constant press is an awesome ride through a sweeping curve.

IrishJohn, your "instructor" is an idiot. By telling you that you'll crash if you don't understand the science behind it inidcates that he doesn't understand his trade. You already have the subconcious ability to perform the manuver but by making it a conscious thought process, you and every other non-physics major, get wrapped around the axle by the "why". Focus on what you know by practicing what you've aready done-and after your ride re-riide it it your head...

Asphalt dancing with your 2 wheeled dancer is a lifetime of pleasure and learning-and practicing makes you all the better as you begin to turn up the tempo!


I learn to ride a bike with out hearing the word counter steer. I just learn to corner a bike quick and easy as there is no dark art to it.
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Old 07-07-2013, 12:07 PM   #756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Center-stand View Post
I have 4 road bikes, an 08 KLR, 87 BMW R65, 02 BMW R1150R, and a 96 FLHTP. Each of these bikes will tend to right themselves and go straight as soon as I relax or release pressure on the bars.

I can't imagine riding a bike that was "neutral", if by "neutral" you mean it requires no effort to put it into a turn or hold it there.

I don't know enough about bike geometry to discuss specifics, but I do know that the gyroscopic effect of the front end geometry wants a moving bike to stay upright and run straight unless directed to do otherwise by the rider.

How much effort it takes to turn in or hold a turn can be debated, but if it requires no effort it would be a dangerous bike to ride, in my opinion.

I believe that many bike accidents that occur in curves are caused by a brief moment of panic when the rider thinks he can't make the turn, relaxes momentarily, and goes straight into a ditch, guardrail, oncoming auto, or whatever. Experienced riders will apply a bit more downward pressure on the down end of the bars and complete the turn.

..
Every sportbike I've ridden with decent tires on it has been for the most part neutral while leaned over (it doesn't try to stand up or lean further). It does take more effort to counter-steer because of the rake angle and fighting gyroscopic forces but neutral once you let pressure off the bars to hold a lean angle. Its designed this way for racing to let the rider keep their arms relaxed with pressure off the bars right at the traction limits. The reason for this is motorcycles are inherently stable with the geometry thats built into the frame. If there are some meaty fists pushing on the handlebars it prevents the geometry from keeping the motorcycle stable especially at the limits of traction. Relaxed arms also give you a finer feel of the traction limits.

If a new rider is going to run off the road they find ways to do it on any type of motorcycle. Almost anyone on a sportbike is going to try and fly into corners that they can't handle yet so it might up the odds. When you see a motorcyclist get into a tank slapper it is always the rider having a tight grip every single time unless its a mechanical failure (when have you ever seen a bike do that on its own?). A little head shake can happen from a light front wheel and how it reacts with the suspension / pavement.

There are a lot of reasons why beginners shouldn't ride sportbikes. I guess you can chalk that up as one of the many. Tha'ts getting way off topic now anyway .

Counter-steering is good, learn it, practice it, and ride it.
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Old 07-07-2013, 03:51 PM   #757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rucksta View Post
I can turn at full lock and go round and round until I get dizzy or bored.
Waiting for the video.






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90BxTrAADi4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMIpytPQwug

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AL6rLRuxQE

lnewqban screwed with this post 07-07-2013 at 09:45 PM Reason: To edit quote
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Old 07-07-2013, 04:52 PM   #758
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Originally Posted by Rucksta View Post
I can turn at full lock and go round and round until I get dizzy or bored.
Yeah, I can do this as well, and it does poke a huge hole in the "you are countersteering at any speed while turning" argument.
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Old 07-07-2013, 05:18 PM   #759
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Originally Posted by Barry View Post
Yeah, I can do this as well, and it does poke a huge hole in the "you are countersteering at any speed while turning" argument.
Yeah that's a huge hole. I typically spend all day with the steering at maximum lock.

Yes, when you lock the steering to the point where you can't countersteer, then yes, you must control the lean angle with throttle, brake and clutch. The fact that it is more difficult to maintain full lock turns, than near full lock turns, shows that countersteering is a much more effective method of controlling lean angle than using the throttle clutch and brake alone.
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Old 07-07-2013, 05:49 PM   #760
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Originally Posted by Boon Booni View Post
Yeah that's a huge hole. I typically spend all day with the steering at maximum lock.

Yes, when you lock the steering to the point where you can't countersteer, then yes, you must control the lean angle with throttle, brake and clutch. The fact that it is more difficult to maintain full lock turns, than near full lock turns, shows that countersteering is a much more effective method of controlling lean angle than using the throttle clutch and brake alone.
People talk in terms of absolutes when addressing countersteering. The videos blow a hole in the absolute portion of the argument. I maintain it becomes efficient at some very low MPH...
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Old 07-07-2013, 06:10 PM   #761
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Originally Posted by Barry View Post
People talk in terms of absolutes when addressing countersteering. The videos blow a hole in the absolute portion of the argument. I maintain it becomes efficient at some very low MPH...
The videos show that you can get to a point of equilibrium where forward speed, steering angle, gravity and centrifugal force are all balanced.

I guarantee you those guys had to countersteer to lean the bike over to get to that point. The second video starts with the guys left hand on the bars. Why is his hand on the bars? It's on the bars to countersteer to that point of equilibrium. Once there he uses the rear brake to juggle between gravity and centrifugal force.
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Old 07-07-2013, 06:21 PM   #762
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Do people read??

Several folks have mentioned that all turning "starts" with countersteering input whether from handgrip pressure, weight shifts which CAUSE handlebar movement, or similar. Not thinking many have said the front wheel doesn't sometimes or eventually turn in the direction of a turn, especially at lower speeds.
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Old 07-07-2013, 11:52 PM   #763
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Even if you can go around and round at full lock until you get dizzy. You are still countersteering! As suggested earlier in the thread, next time you are going round and round to the right at full lock, turn the bars to the left and report back to us! Countersteering is holding the bike up. If you accelerate but maintain full lock eventually countersteering will throw the bike the other way.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:53 AM   #764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry View Post
People talk in terms of absolutes when addressing countersteering. The videos blow a hole in the absolute portion of the argument. I maintain it becomes efficient at some very low MPH...
+1

If countersteering was an absolute would it work when the bike rolls backwards?
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:11 AM   #765
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Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post

Every sportbike I've ridden with decent tires on it has been for the most part neutral while leaned over (it doesn't try to stand up or lean further). It does take more effort to counter-steer because of the rake angle and fighting gyroscopic forces but neutral once you let pressure off the bars to hold a lean angle. Its designed this way for racing to let the rider keep their arms relaxed with pressure off the bars right at the traction limits. The reason for this is motorcycles are inherently stable with the geometry thats built into the frame. If there are some meaty fists pushing on the handlebars it prevents the geometry from keeping the motorcycle stable especially at the limits of traction. Relaxed arms also give you a finer feel of the traction limits.

I suppose there are different impressions of neutral, relaxed, effort, pressure, etc. When I watch a flat tracker or GP rider I don't see relaxed. I see constant dynamics, with a rider making adjustments on the fly with his arms, hands, legs, body, brakes, throttle, everything is moving to keep the bike in a stable position relative to the many variable forces of speed, traction, centrifugal forces, etc. I suspect that there are times when meaty fists are needed to keep even a well setup race machine on track. I'm not a racer, so maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that at the limits of traction would be the last place a racer would be relaxed.

My point is, spirited riding requires constant input by the rider, it is a dynamic experience, there is not a neutral lean on a bike. In a turn, even if you release the bars with your hands, the body is applying an equal and opposite pressure, effort, balance, whatever you want to call it, to the natural centrifugal, gyroscopic forces that are trying to either right, or lay down the bike.

The video linked below is a great example of the dynamics of counter steering through a turn. I don't see any relaxed racer's arms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gjlVqAVb84

..
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