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Old 08-07-2013, 01:51 PM   #796
orangebear
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1. non-countersteer - lean with bike:


2. countersteer - stay upright with only bike leaned (including partial stand-on-pegs):

1 I thought countersteering was leaning with the bike like I all have done as its the easiest way to do it.

2 I was told to only lean the bike and stay up right if I am off road as its the way mx bikes are ridden

What I have said and been told my be utter sh.t.
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:21 PM   #797
Boon Booni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth650 View Post
I do countersteering on poor quality pavement (greasy and dirt-strewn), and often off-road.

In a turn:

1. non-countersteer - lean with bike:

pro's
not tedious on twisties.
easier to learn.

con's
g-forces add side-weight to contact patch(es).
rider less reactive to unexpected obstacle.

2. countersteer - stay upright with only bike leaned (including partial stand-on-pegs):

pro's
g-forces don't add as much side-weight to contact patch(es), as rider g-force is straight not sidways, with more weight on front wheel when on pegs.

more reactive for swerving.

con's
tedious on twisties.
requires additional practice to do safely.


This
Is
The
Dumbest
Thing
I
Have
Read
In
A
While

and I just came up from CS&M
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:34 PM   #798
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My brother-in-law just had a head-on with a pickup. It was a typical California foothills twisty road above Sacto. The driver saw the rider running wide into his lane so he stopped. My B-in-Law hit him head on anyway. He's sore and the bike is totaled. But he flipped over the hood and into the pucker bushes...

If he would have tried to make his line by counter steering, no problem. But instead, he 'leaned' the bike with his body rather than push on the inside handlebar to force the arc. I'm all for leaning, but you know pretty fast when it won't work.

Any novice motorcycle racer knows the difference between counter steering to make his apex... and leaning. Every street rider should be taught how to forcibly tighten his arc using his arms.

The people who argue against counter steering are simply in the dark.
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:51 PM   #799
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Old 08-07-2013, 05:17 PM   #800
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Thumb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boon Booni View Post
This
Is
The
Dumbest
Thing
I
Have
Read
In
A
While

and I just came up from CS&M
I even read it three times trying to make sense of it.
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Old 08-07-2013, 06:43 PM   #801
David R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantah View Post
My brother-in-law just had a head-on with a pickup. It was a typical California foothills twisty road above Sacto. The driver saw the rider running wide into his lane so he stopped. My B-in-Law hit him head on anyway. He's sore and the bike is totaled. But he flipped over the hood and into the pucker bushes...

If he would have tried to make his line by counter steering, no problem. But instead, he 'leaned' the bike with his body rather than push on the inside handlebar to force the arc. I'm all for leaning, but you know pretty fast when it won't work.

Any novice motorcycle racer knows the difference between counter steering to make his apex... and leaning. Every street rider should be taught how to forcibly tighten his arc using his arms.

The people who argue against counter steering are simply in the dark.
Sums it up pretty good. I learned from one of these threads to MAKE the bike go around the corner, not lean the bike and HOPE it turns sharp enough.

Grab the effin bull by the horns and turn the goddam corner!

This thread will go on forever. :) I am one that learned, so thank you.

David
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:12 AM   #802
orangebear
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When I corner I just lean with the bike and if I have a pillion I tell them to keep there body in line with mine when I go round corners
I have all way made it round ever bend fine
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:38 AM   #803
sloweddy
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It has been said before (at least 205 times) but...

Anyone who thinks they can turn a motorcycle without countersteering should try (or at least read about) the "No BS" bike that Keith Code fixed up to educate folks who say "I turn by leaning".

The bike has two sets of handlebars. One set turns the front wheel - the other set is welded to the frame. People who think they can effectively turn a bike by leaning can try the fixed set of handlebars & see how well they do at it. The answer is "not very well". Every time.




http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php

"No B.S.

At this writing, we have run nearly 100 riders of all experience levels on this double-barred bike. It has made believers out of every single one in the actuality of countersteering of course. Even at speeds of no more than 20 to 35 mph, no matter how much you tug or push or pull or jump around on the bike, the best we saw was that the bike wiggled and became somewhat unstable. Did it turn? Not really. Would it turn at higher speed? Absolutely not. Could you avoid something in your path? No Way. Could anyone quick turn the bike? Hopeless! The best result was one of my riding coaches. He got into a full hang-off position and was able to persuade the bike, by jerking on it, to start on a wide, wide arc in the paddock at Laguna Seca, a piece of asphalt that is about 500 X 800 feet. Like turning an oil tanker ship, start at noon and be on the turning arc at around 1:00 PM. It wasn't smooth and it wasn't very effective.

We now call this bike "The NO BS Bike". There are no doubts in anyone's mind after they ride it that they have been countersteering all along. No doubts.

You can hear riders who believed in the body steering method, laughing in their helmets at 100 yards away, once they get those solid-mounted bars in their hands and try to body steer the bike. They just shake their heads. No B.S.

Dangerous Misconceptions

Now if you want to look a little further into this, what you will see is this: riders who still labor under the misconception that they body steer are devoting themselves to a system that can do a great deal of actual harm. Firstly, it is seriously misguided to add an additional series of actions to the steering process. When it is quick, critical steering that is needed to avoid something, that lag I have observed so many times in street riders, could cost you your hide.

Adding 2/10ths to 5/10ths of a second, or more, to the steering procedure at 60 mph means that you have just gone another 18 to 44 feet, or more, down the road before you started to avoid that muffler lying in your path. Kids, don't try this at home.

The way things are going there will be warning labels on motorcycles in the not too distant future.

WARNING: THIS VEHICLE COUNTERSTEERS. IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND COUNTERSTEERING DO NOT RIDE. SEEK THE HELP OF A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL Riding Coach.

"The Correct Brothers

It shouldn't be alarming to me that riders still question how to steer their motorcycles but it is. Apparently, even after 90 years when it was first observed by the Wright brothers some confusion remains on this subject . Yes, their first engineering attempts were as bicycle manufacturers. The very observant brothers, determined that tandem-wheeled (one wheel in front of the other) vehicles countersteer. That was and still is correct.

Sources of Confusion

It is easy to see how confusion arises on the subject of steering for anyone of us who started their riding on pedal bikes. The steering is so light on a bicycle that riders have difficulty in separating the shift of their body mass (leaning into it) with the slight effort it takes to countersteer.

Further confusion arises from word of mouth advice on riding. I have even seen articles in usually credible national magazines extolling the virtues of body mass type of steering. Body Steering as it is called. I have surveyed thousands of riders on this point. Most riders still believe that some of the steering is being done with their body mass or weight shift or pressure on the motorcycle's tank or pegs. Their estimates on how effective these are in getting the bike to turn range anywhere from 10% to 90%, some believe all of it is weight shift.

Swoopy Steering

If it weren't so grim, it's almost comical to watch a rider who does not understand how steering is accomplished. You can see them riding down the freeway trying and failing to change lanes by body steering and still appear cool while doing so. I have seen it dozens of times. It goes like this: The rider does a very swoopy upper body swing in the direction he wishes to go but for an agonizing (to me) moment, nothing happens. There is a perceivable lag between the upper body swoop and the bike's deflection from its original course. How terrifying it must be to find that the bike doesn't instantly respond."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Code
"Keith Code is a former motorcycle racer,[1] writer, and founder of the California Superbike School.[2] He has been called "arguably the best known and most successful on-track motorcycle instructor in the world".[3]

Code founded the California Superbike School in 1980. The school has taught numerous championship winning riders such as Wayne Rainey.[4] As of 2009, riders who have been trained either at his schools or by him personally have won 49 world and national racing championships. His teaching has been spread all over the world.[2] His California Superbike Schools have operated at over 90 tracks worldwide in 15 countries and have trained 150,000 riders.

In 2006 he was tasked by the United States Marine Corps to design a rider training program that would be effective in reducing serious motorcycle accidents among USMC riders. The program, called Advanced Motorcycle Operator School, is now considered the "gold Standard" of rider training by Marine safety personnel due to its graduates' extraordinary safety record over a four-year period.[5]

Code has invented rider training devices such as the No Body Steering Bike which illustrates the necessity for counter-steering to be used, the Lean and Slide Bike Trainers that train not only good body positioning and visual skills but also allow riders to experience sliding the machine with much reduced possibility of crashing, and the Panic Braking Trainer that allows riders to experience front wheel lock up and learn how to recover from it.[6][7][8]
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sloweddy screwed with this post 08-08-2013 at 02:47 AM
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Old 08-08-2013, 07:35 AM   #804
Boon Booni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangebear View Post
When I corner I just lean with the bike and if I have a pillion I tell them to keep there body in line with mine when I go round corners
I have all way made it round ever bend fine
Wow, you must be a pretty sweet no hands rider. With skills like yours I bet you never touch the bars.
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Where the fuck...
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Old 08-08-2013, 08:23 PM   #805
Seth650
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oops

My original post badly needed 2 corrections:

Countersteer means to push right (handlebar), lean right (you with bike), to go right (I had called this non-countersteering)

"Counterweighting" as per MSF Basic Ridercourse book, is steering with no rider leaning (just the bike leans), as in low speed riding in parking lots. I use this also at much higher speeds where the road surface is compromised or off-road, to focus weight evenly on pegs and straight vertical weight on tires. On a dual-sport, this results in a nearly neutral bias on the bike's vector - and predictable handling; the down-side (lol) being much more rider excertion needed. (I had called this countersteering).

Yes, I am MC Certified, put about 50-60 miles a week on/off road locally except in Winter, and at/up-to 15mph over the posted speed limits!


Quote:
Originally Posted by orangebear View Post
1. non-countersteer - lean with bike:


2. countersteer - stay upright with only bike leaned (including partial stand-on-pegs):

1 I thought countersteering was leaning with the bike like I all have done as its the easiest way to do it.

2 I was told to only lean the bike and stay up right if I am off road as its the way mx bikes are ridden

What I have said and been told my be utter sh.t.
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Seth650 screwed with this post 08-08-2013 at 08:32 PM Reason: calrity
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Old 08-09-2013, 03:34 PM   #806
joexr
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Puke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth650 View Post
My original post badly needed 2 corrections:

Countersteer means to push right (handlebar), lean right (you with bike), to go right (I had called this non-countersteering)

"Counterweighting" as per MSF Basic Ridercourse book, is steering with no rider leaning (just the bike leans), as in low speed riding in parking lots. I use this also at much higher speeds where the road surface is compromised or off-road, to focus weight evenly on pegs and straight vertical weight on tires. On a dual-sport, this results in a nearly neutral bias on the bike's vector - and predictable handling; the down-side (lol) being much more rider excertion needed. (I had called this countersteering).

Yes, I am MC Certified, put about 50-60 miles a week on/off road locally except in Winter, and at/up-to 15mph over the posted speed limits!
I'm impressed. NOT.
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Old 08-09-2013, 06:55 PM   #807
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average

Before this thread, I had the impression that the ADV Inmates were far above average in their motorcycle knowledge and skills.

This thread has shown that ADV is a perfect representation of a cross-section of riders. Some superlative and some way below average.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:03 PM   #808
Midnullarbor
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Seth, I don't understand what you are wanting to mean by "straight vertical weight on tires".

The "weight on tires" is always vertical and always the same [when you have averaged it out for the fluctuations caused by accelerations, bumps and pot-holes . . . and even jumps !!] regardless of the actual angle of the wheel.
The wheel angle can't in itself alter the vertical force caused by weight [i.e. by gravity].
Leaning with the bike, or (OTOH) "counterweighting" with your body . . . still has the same gravity weight pushing down vertically onto those contact patches on the road.

Were you meaning something different?
.
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Old 08-10-2013, 06:54 AM   #809
Seth650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnullarbor View Post
.
Seth, I don't understand what you are wanting to mean by "straight vertical weight on tires".

The "weight on tires" is always vertical and always the same [when you have averaged it out for the fluctuations caused by accelerations, bumps and pot-holes . . . and even jumps !!] regardless of the actual angle of the wheel.
The wheel angle can't in itself alter the vertical force caused by weight [i.e. by gravity].
Leaning with the bike, or (OTOH) "counterweighting" with your body . . . still has the same gravity weight pushing down vertically onto those contact patches on the road.

Were you meaning something different?
.
Leaning with the bike means the rear tire has to overcome the levering effect of your body's lean. IOW, weight is shifted away from the outside peg, and onto the inside peg, in-effect twisting the bike's lengthwise axis in the direction of the turn, and the rear wheel must overcome that. And, in MSF terms, counterweighting means the weight remains even on the pegs and this effect is lessened.

I lean all the time with my thighs on the tank, on highways and sane parts of off-road trails; not a chicken-strip fan! But needless to say, new riders should follow the MSF BRC instructions and not listen to old guys talking theory.
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Seth650 screwed with this post 08-10-2013 at 06:56 AM Reason: pendantical
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:12 AM   #810
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