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Old 08-10-2013, 07:17 AM   #811
SloMo228
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Just to add some more confusion:

How does this guy drive from Michigan to Kentucky without touching the handlebars?

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/09/28/...for-525-miles/

Granted, he's on the freeway so there aren't exactly many tight bends.
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:25 AM   #812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SloMo228 View Post
How does this guy drive from Michigan to Kentucky without touching the handlebars?

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/09/28/...for-525-miles/

Granted, he's on the freeway so there aren't exactly many tight bends.
You answered your own question. Even Keith Code's no-bs bike shows that you can alter a bikes direction by shifting your weight. Hell, I've ridden my bicycle many miles with my hands off the bars, but it sure is not a very effective way of turning the bike.
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:39 AM   #813
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Originally Posted by tokyoklahoma View Post
Before this thread, I had the impression that the ADV Inmates were far above average in their motorcycle knowledge and skills.

This thread has shown that ADV is a perfect representation of a cross-section of riders. Some superlative and some way below average.
I'll take that under advisement as soon as I finish HDR'ing my bikes' pics 'til they resemble nauseating holograms of an atavan-induced stupor.
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Old 08-10-2013, 10:32 AM   #814
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Question

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Originally Posted by Seth650 View Post
Leaning with the bike means the rear tire has to overcome the levering effect of your body's lean. IOW, weight is shifted away from the outside peg, and onto the inside peg, in-effect twisting the bike's lengthwise axis in the direction of the turn, and the rear wheel must overcome that. And, in MSF terms, counterweighting means the weight remains even on the pegs and this effect is lessened.

I lean all the time with my thighs on the tank, on highways and sane parts of off-road trails; not a chicken-strip fan! But needless to say, new riders should follow the MSF BRC instructions and not listen to old guys talking theory.
I'm just glad you ride what little you do in a completely different state. You may have found a way to grind the sides of your tires , but you are by no means a capable or accomplished rider. You need to try out a track-day or two. You'll something AND realize you're full of crap.
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Old 08-10-2013, 05:21 PM   #815
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Thanks for your reply, Seth.

I am not sure I follow your convoluted talk about "twisting" . . . but no matter, I'll leave you and others to sort that out.

My primary concern was about your earlier comments which seemed to be implying that by leaning the bike inwards (and your body more outwards ~ uneven weighting on the pegs) you would get to produce more "downwards weight on the tires" for more traction. Which of course can't be true.
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Old 08-11-2013, 08:18 AM   #816
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Originally Posted by Midnullarbor View Post
.I am not sure I follow your convoluted talk about "twisting" . . . but no matter, I'll leave you and others to sort that out. .......................Which of course can't be true..

There is some validity in the concept.

In trials one techinque for traversing a slope is to weight the downhill peg whilst keeping the bike upright.
The rider would lean to the uphill side to maintain balance.

When drifting, weight on the outside peg allows you to feed more throttle to balance the increased traction.

When railing a berm I'll crank the bike over and keep my body upright.

All off road disiplines to be sure but changing the surface, the tread pattern or the bikes geometry doen't change the rules of physics.
All that changes is how accessable and effective alternate techniques become.

Maybe Seth has just been given poor instruction by someone who had a half arsed idea of the concept.
Maybe it's just bad comunication.

More puzzling to me is why riders who have the epiphany of discovering countersteering now close their minds to any other way of initiating or controlling a turn.
Countersteering is a powerfull tool and can be enhanced by a range of lesser tools.
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Old 08-11-2013, 08:51 AM   #817
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Originally Posted by Rucksta View Post
There is some validity in the concept.

In trials one techinque for traversing a slope is to weight the downhill peg whilst keeping the bike upright.
The rider would lean to the uphill side to maintain balance.

When drifting, weight on the outside peg allows you to feed more throttle to balance the increased traction.

When railing a berm I'll crank the bike over and keep my body upright.

All off road disiplines to be sure but changing the surface, the tread pattern or the bikes geometry doen't change the rules of physics.
All that changes is how accessable and effective alternate techniques become.

Maybe Seth has just been given poor instruction by someone who had a half arsed idea of the concept.
Maybe it's just bad comunication.

More puzzling to me is why riders who have the epiphany of discovering countersteering now close their minds to any other way of initiating or controlling a turn.
Countersteering is a powerfull tool and can be enhanced by a range of lesser tools.
For the trials riding example that is a good reason to weight a peg. If you do fall, at least you'll fall up hill too.

This might be nit picking at details but weighting the outside peg while drifting does not increase traction on the rear wheel but it does have some very important advantages. Weighting the outside peg forces you to lock your leg and lower body onto the motorcycle (you can't put weight on that peg without locking into the bike). Locking your lower body into the motorcycle makes your counter-steering more effective and it gives you a more direct feel of what the motorcycle is doing. Here is the reason why; if you were to ride around without locking your lower body to the bike then when you turn the handlebars, they try to turn you back in the other direction (Newtons 3rd law... its harder to notice on a dirtbike). 2nd reason, if your lower body isn't locked into the motorcycle its hard to even tell its sliding because you don't have a very direct connection with the bike. Locking in gives you better feel which is information your brain needs to apply the correct amount of throttle. When you apply the right amount of throttle drive out of the corner is at its optimum. That sort of correlation between feel and throttle control takes a few years for most people to develop with off-road riding.

So a lower body lock onto the motorcycle is extremely important for counter-steering and feel with performance riding. I don't know why my posts always come out so long for one stupid detail.
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Old 08-11-2013, 10:02 AM   #818
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Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
For the trials riding example that is a good reason to weight a peg. If you do fall, at least you'll fall up hill too.

This might be nit picking at details but weighting the outside peg while drifting does not increase traction on the rear wheel but it does have some very important advantages. Weighting the outside peg forces you to lock your leg and lower body onto the motorcycle (you can't put weight on that peg without locking into the bike). Locking your lower body into the motorcycle makes your counter-steering more effective and it gives you a more direct feel of what the motorcycle is doing. Here is the reason why; if you were to ride around without locking your lower body to the bike then when you turn the handlebars, they try to turn you back in the other direction (Newtons 3rd law... its harder to notice on a dirtbike). 2nd reason, if your lower body isn't locked into the motorcycle its hard to even tell its sliding because you don't have a very direct connection with the bike. Locking in gives you better feel which is information your brain needs to apply the correct amount of throttle. When you apply the right amount of throttle drive out of the corner is at its optimum. That sort of correlation between feel and throttle control takes a few years for most people to develop with off-road riding.

So a lower body lock onto the motorcycle is extremely important for counter-steering and feel with performance riding. I don't know why my posts always come out so long for one stupid detail.
Your one of few that ever makes any sense here , but someone who read something once will be along soon with their skewed interpretation.
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Old 08-12-2013, 04:12 PM   #819
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Good lord, 55 pages and STILL growing into a novel?

I still say, quit discussing this to death. Go out, practice it, feel it, use it. Trying to discuss it, rationalize it, figure it out to no end, does little if you don't try it, practice it, feel it and use it.
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Old 08-12-2013, 04:41 PM   #820
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Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post
Good lord, 55 pages and STILL growing into a novel?

I still say, quit discussing this to death. Go out, practice it, feel it, use it. Trying to discuss it, rationalize it, figure it out to no end, does little if you don't try it, practice it, feel it and use it.
I like the partial comedic entertainment. Some of these imbecil's theories are both hilarious and disturbing.
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:31 PM   #821
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Well, I learned a lot years ago in endurance roadracing. I'd vary the boredom by weighting differently, countersteering differently, a series of laps at a time, and then be able to compare lap times as well as the way it felt.

Surprising how differently it all came out, compared with many of the theories that have surfaced here. (And, as well all know, if the facts do not conform with the theory, they must be disposed of...,)

However, one aspect that some have hinted at here - some trials riding techniques translate very well to the roadrace track and the road.
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Old 08-18-2013, 04:32 AM   #822
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I'm just glad you ride what little you do in a completely different state. You may have found a way to grind the sides of your tires , but you are by no means a capable or accomplished rider. You need to try out a track-day or two. You'll something AND realize you're full of crap.
I've learned so much from this site that my level of accomplishment is beyond what I expected. There will be naysayers, and theorists like on "the UFO Files" , etc. but we must forge ahead by not only practicing current skills, learning new ones, but creating new realms of conciousness.
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Old 08-18-2013, 08:08 AM   #823
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I think countersteering comes so natural that many, if not most riders do it almost instinctively, from an early age with our first bicycle.

Writing about countersteering, not so natural.
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Old 08-18-2013, 10:01 PM   #824
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Perhaps it comes natural to those who survive thier first year of riding. But given that over 40% of cycle crashes are single vehicle crashes like "failed to negotiate the curve", "lost control in a curve", and given the times I've heard from riders "the bike just wouldn't make the turn" I'll argue that logic. Way too many riders really don't know how to make a bike what they need it to do.
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Old 08-19-2013, 01:47 AM   #825
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Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post
Perhaps it comes natural to those who survive thier first year of riding. But given that over 40% of cycle crashes are single vehicle crashes like "failed to negotiate the curve", "lost control in a curve", and given the times I've heard from riders "the bike just wouldn't make the turn" I'll argue that logic. Way too many riders really don't know how to make a bike what they need it to do.
I'll argue that logic. If the bike is turning and the hands are on the bars, the motorcyclist is already counter steering wether he/she knows it or not.

The real mistakes are 1. NOT looking through the turn. Turn your head and look in the direction you want to go. 2. Taking the curve/turn too fast. A lot of this has to do with newer and less experienced riders trying to keep up with their friends. New riders need to know there is no race, and to only do what they are comfortable with. I always tell newer riders to not try to keep up with me (and I slow down my pace anyways while riding with them). 3. Not accelerating through the curve/turn.

Way too much time is spent explaining what physics requires us to do already. I had to consciously turn my head in the beginning (it comes natural now, 40 years later). I had to remember to accelerate (although this was a more natural act). I was riding for 30 years before I ever heard of countersteering, and knowing that did nothing to improve my skills. It was a more "nice to know" than anything.

If we want to improve rider safety, let's teach good habits and not physics.
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