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Old 08-19-2013, 02:30 AM   #826
orangebear
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
I'll argue that logic. If the bike is turning and the hands are on the bars, the motorcyclist is already counter steering wether he/she knows it or not.

The real mistakes are 1. NOT looking through the turn. Turn your head and look in the direction you want to go. 2. Taking the curve/turn too fast. A lot of this has to do with newer and less experienced riders trying to keep up with their friends. New riders need to know there is no race, and to only do what they are comfortable with. I always tell newer riders to not try to keep up with me (and I slow down my pace anyways while riding with them). 3. Not accelerating through the curve/turn.

Way too much time is spent explaining what physics requires us to do already. I had to consciously turn my head in the beginning (it comes natural now, 40 years later). I had to remember to accelerate (although this was a more natural act). I was riding for 30 years before I ever heard of countersteering, and knowing that did nothing to improve my skills. It was a more "nice to know" than anything.

If we want to improve rider safety, let's teach good habits and not physics.

I was the same I did my test and was riding for 5 years before I heard about it . Then I you tubed it to see what it was about. Then I keeped doing it my way as it was working fine.
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Old 08-19-2013, 03:50 AM   #827
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I prefer knowledge to ignorance, but hey, you fellas find your own path.
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Old 08-19-2013, 04:02 AM   #828
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Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
I prefer knowledge to ignorance, but hey, you fellas find your own path.
Nothing wrong with knowledge, don't get me wrong. But saying that you have to "master" countersteering to be safe on a motorcycle is like saying you have to "master" sitting to take a dump on an American style toilet. If you're dumping on the throne, you're sitting. If you're turning a motorcycle, you're countersteering. No mastery involved.
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Old 08-19-2013, 04:17 AM   #829
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if we want to improve rider safety, let's teach good habits and the physics.
fyp
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Old 08-19-2013, 04:52 AM   #830
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
Nothing wrong with knowledge, don't get me wrong. But saying that you have to "master" countersteering to be safe on a motorcycle is like saying you have to "master" sitting to take a dump on an American style toilet. If you're dumping on the throne, you're sitting. If you're turning a motorcycle, you're countersteering. No mastery involved.

The mastery, is knowing that a hard push will enable a rider to avoid an obstacle or accident, If you learn it and practice it, it very well could save your life.
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Old 08-19-2013, 05:15 AM   #831
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
............If we want to improve rider safety, let's teach good habits and not physics.
How can we do that via Internet?
Maybe:
1) Lean your upper-body and push the hand-grip on the direction you want to turn?
2) Push harder to turn quickly?
3) Maybe lean your upper-body and push the hand-grip on the direction you want to straighten the bike up?
4) Push harder to straighten the bike up quickly or to negotiate a quick chicane?
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Old 08-19-2013, 05:30 AM   #832
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Originally Posted by lnewqban View Post
How can we do that via Internet?
Maybe:
1) Lean your upper-body and push the hand-grip on the direction you want to turn?
2) Push harder to turn quickly?
3) Maybe lean your upper-body and push the hand-grip on the direction you want to straighten the bike up?
4) Push harder to straighten the bike up quickly or to negotiate a quick chicane?
Keep it simple.

1) Take a safety course. You are not going to learn without practice.
2) Look where you want to go.
3) Practice. Practice quick turns, until you can do it without thinking.
4) Remember, it isn't a race. Don't ride faster than you are comfortable with. Period.
5) Ride your bike. A lot. Turn your head and watch where you are going. Have fun.
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Old 08-19-2013, 05:34 AM   #833
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Originally Posted by rbrsddn View Post
The mastery, is knowing that a hard push will enable a rider to avoid an obstacle or accident, If you learn it and practice it, it very well could save your life.
Whenever someone turns quick, they give a hard push. Just have them practice quick and hard turns. This obsession with making everyone realize they are countersteering, while interesting, is not important when learning to ride a bike. Practice is. I guarentee you, if you tell someone to turn quickly without telling them to countersteer, they will anyhow. Or they will go straight.

There is enough to think about when you are a new rider. Cramming useless stuff on top of it seems, at best, counter-productive.
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Old 08-19-2013, 05:47 AM   #834
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
Whenever someone turns quick, they give a hard push. Just have them practice quick and hard turns. This obsession with making everyone realize they are countersteering, while interesting, is not important when learning to ride a bike. Practice is. I guarentee you, if you tell someone to turn quickly without telling them to countersteer, they will anyhow. Or they will go straight.

There is enough to think about when you are a new rider. Cramming useless stuff on top of it seems, at best, counter-productive.
I wouldn't call teaching how to countersteer, useless. There are people who have ridden for years who don't know how to use it in a panic situation. It should be taught from the beginning, so it becomes ingrained.
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Old 08-19-2013, 06:42 AM   #835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
Whenever someone turns quick, they give a hard push. Just have them practice quick and hard turns. This obsession with making everyone realize they are countersteering, while interesting, is not important when learning to ride a bike. Practice is. I guarentee you, if you tell someone to turn quickly without telling them to countersteer, they will anyhow. Or they will go straight.

There is enough to think about when you are a new rider. Cramming useless stuff on top of it seems, at best, counter-productive.
i think you really need to stfu on this topic. looking where you want to go avoids target fixation. it does not teach countersteering. a rider should be able to hang off the right side. look right , and still make the bike go left. the throttle should not be a necessary component to steering. I'm really beginning to believe you only think you know how to aggressively countersteer.
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Old 08-19-2013, 09:19 PM   #836
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Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post
Perhaps it comes natural to those who survive thier first year of riding. But given that over 40% of cycle crashes are single vehicle crashes like "failed to negotiate the curve", "lost control in a curve", and given the times I've heard from riders "the bike just wouldn't make the turn" I'll argue that logic. Way too many riders really don't know how to make a bike what they need it to do.
They FEAR the bike and aren't confident in their abilities. If you never push yourself you never know how far you can go. Although some people won't ever GET IT.
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Old 08-19-2013, 09:24 PM   #837
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
Whenever someone turns quick, they give a hard push. Just have them practice quick and hard turns. This obsession with making everyone realize they are countersteering, while interesting, is not important when learning to ride a bike. Practice is. I guarentee you, if you tell someone to turn quickly without telling them to countersteer, they will anyhow. Or they will go straight.

There is enough to think about when you are a new rider. Cramming useless stuff on top of it seems, at best, counter-productive.
This sums up this whole , long drawn out thread perfectly.
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Old 08-19-2013, 09:34 PM   #838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
Whenever someone turns quick, they give a hard push. Just have them practice quick and hard turns. This obsession with making everyone realize they are countersteering, while interesting, is not important when learning to ride a bike. Practice is. I guarentee you, if you tell someone to turn quickly without telling them to countersteer, they will anyhow. Or they will go straight.

There is enough to think about when you are a new rider. Cramming useless stuff on top of it seems, at best, counter-productive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerstu View Post
i think you really need to stfu on this topic. looking where you want to go avoids target fixation. it does not teach countersteering. a rider should be able to hang off the right side. look right , and still make the bike go left. the throttle should not be a necessary component to steering. I'm really beginning to believe you only think you know how to aggressively countersteer.
Flamerstu , you're blithering AGAIN. He didn't say anything about not looking where you want to go . He's saying , go out and goddam do it instead of reading or talking about it. Practice and seat time. There is NO substitute. EVERYBODY countersteers , even 5 year olds. You going to read a novel to a 5 year old? Not necessary. If somebody isn't countersteering , they not going to get 5 feet.DUMBASS !
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Old 08-20-2013, 02:26 AM   #839
Jim Moore
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"Don't think! Don't learn! Don't read! Don't study! Just go out and pretend you're five years old. You'll be fine!"

Luckily no one is paying attention anymore, because some of you guys are giving advice that is really, really bad.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:08 AM   #840
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Originally Posted by rbrsddn View Post
I wouldn't call teaching how to countersteer, useless. There are people who have ridden for years who don't know how to use it in a panic situation. It should be taught from the beginning, so it becomes ingrained.
I was one of them.

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