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Old 08-24-2013, 04:21 AM   #886
David R
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Originally Posted by PFFOG View Post
Said it in this thread months ago, the brain and its connective inputs, sight inner ear, make adjustments at lightening speed, and if it senses the input is creating negative results it quickly changes tact.

Like I said, we learned to walk without knowing anything about the muscles involved and whether that they needed to be contracted or relaxed at given points of our stride. In fact I still don't
Here I am going around a corner, decreasing radius. I don't have the skills to countersteer I learned here. Brain sees me going wide. Brain changes tact. Sends message to sphincter "relax" at lightning speed!

Maybe for you it doesn't matter. For me what I read here improved my riding skills.

Perhaps we should not tell people to "Look through the corner" or use the rear brake for low speed maneuvers. It should just come naturally because we can walk.

I could weave in out of dotted lines at about 60 mph, but could not handle an decreasing radius corner until I read about countersteering.

When I thought the bike was doing all it could, I now know I can just pull the bike deeper into the corner.

Regardless of the science, I can now make tighter corners or change lines in a corner. And I learned it all on the interweb!

David
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David R screwed with this post 08-24-2013 at 04:52 AM
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Old 08-24-2013, 04:55 AM   #887
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honest to god i am not making this up.
joexr said to to do some research on him.( mx#8, held a drag race record etc.) so i did a little goggle search , found him on a couple of other fourums, and these came up.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/98/joexr.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...398869937.jpg/
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:25 AM   #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David R View Post
................

When I thought the bike was doing all it could, I now know I can just pull the bike deeper into the corner.

Regardless of the science, I can now make tighter corners or change lines in a corner. And I learned it all on the interweb!

David

I thing the discussion is good, makes people think, but I still don't think it should be high emphasis when teaching. The safe way to learn how to handle difficult corners is to do a track day.

As far as looking where you want to go, that is the biggest input to the brain, so it can make the automatic corrections, that is why as soon as you looks elsewhere, the brain reacts and goes there!

I chant "look where you want to go" over and over in my helmet when on a twisty road.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:20 PM   #889
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Originally Posted by David R View Post
Here I am going around a corner, decreasing radius. I don't have the skills to countersteer I learned here. Brain sees me going wide. Brain changes tact. Sends message to sphincter "relax" at lightning speed!

Maybe for you it doesn't matter. For me what I read here improved my riding skills.

Perhaps we should not tell people to "Look through the corner" or use the rear brake for low speed maneuvers. It should just come naturally because we can walk.

I could weave in out of dotted lines at about 60 mph, but could not handle an decreasing radius corner until I read about countersteering.

When I thought the bike was doing all it could, I now know I can just pull the bike deeper into the corner.

Regardless of the science, I can now make tighter corners or change lines in a corner. And I learned it all on the interweb!

David
Umm, the answer here is not thinking about countersteering, the answer here is slow down on unfamiliar twisty roads...
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Old 08-27-2013, 04:07 AM   #890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
Umm, the answer here is not thinking about countersteering, the answer here is slow down on unfamiliar twisty roads...
So I should NOT have the tool I need to survive?

I do not have your level of intelligence.

David

To the rest of you thank you for enlightening me. Its been a few years now and I am a much better rider for it.

I have been following this thread for a long time. Then I stopped for a while because it got a little silly.
Its time to leave for a while again.
Over and out.
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Old 08-27-2013, 04:35 PM   #891
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So,..what do you do on that unfamiliar twisty road,...when the curve you entered at 35mph is now getting tighter as a decreasing radius?

Slow down more yet? On many bikes the act of slowing down causes the bike to drift wider because the act of slowing down causes the bike to stand up and decrease lean angle. This is a classic example of maintaining steady throttle, reasonble lean angle (room to spare to lean more if needed) and countersteering to maintain the path of travel YOU want.

Twisty roads are not just about speed, but more so about control. Countersteering is not just about twisty roads,...its about control, whenever and whereever you need it. That fact that many riders never learn countersteering control, or use it, is why many of them crash. It is that much more than speed.
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Old 08-27-2013, 05:59 PM   #892
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Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post
So,..what do you do on that unfamiliar twisty road,...when the curve you entered at 35mph is now getting tighter as a decreasing radius?

Slow down more yet? On many bikes the act of slowing down causes the bike to drift wider because the act of slowing down causes the bike to stand up and decrease lean angle. This is a classic example of maintaining steady throttle, reasonble lean angle (room to spare to lean more if needed) and countersteering to maintain the path of travel YOU want.

Twisty roads are not just about speed, but more so about control. Countersteering is not just about twisty roads,...its about control, whenever and whereever you need it. That fact that many riders never learn countersteering control, or use it, is why many of them crash. It is that much more than speed.
Come on, he is a hippie. By default he would recommend everyone to slow down. :-)
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Old 08-27-2013, 10:52 PM   #893
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Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post

........................ On many bikes the act of slowing down causes the bike to drift wider because the act of slowing down causes the bike to stand up and decrease lean angle. ......................


I'm not smart enough to explain what has been attempted on many previous occasions, but I will say that, slowing down does not "cause" the bike to stand up and decrease lean angle.

I believe that some riders might find themselves in a pickle of a decreasing radius turn and slow down, and raise the bike up, and perhaps wreck because of it, but it's not the slowing down that "causes" the bike to raise up.

..
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Old 08-28-2013, 12:07 AM   #894
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Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post
So,..what do you do on that unfamiliar twisty road,...when the curve you entered at 35mph is now getting tighter as a decreasing radius?

Slow down more yet? On many bikes the act of slowing down causes the bike to drift wider because the act of slowing down causes the bike to stand up and decrease lean angle. This is a classic example of maintaining steady throttle, reasonble lean angle (room to spare to lean more if needed) and countersteering to maintain the path of travel YOU want.

Twisty roads are not just about speed, but more so about control. Countersteering is not just about twisty roads,...its about control, whenever and whereever you need it. That fact that many riders never learn countersteering control, or use it, is why many of them crash. It is that much more than speed.
If you entered the curve too fast for you to handle (say 35mph) that is where the problem is. Knowing what countersteering is isn't going to save your ass. And, if you have a hard time slowing in a curve when necessary, maybe that is what you should be practicing. That and looking at mph signs.
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Old 08-28-2013, 12:10 AM   #895
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Originally Posted by David R View Post
So I should NOT have the tool I need to survive?

I do not have your level of intelligence.

David

To the rest of you thank you for enlightening me. Its been a few years now and I am a much better rider for it.

I have been following this thread for a long time. Then I stopped for a while because it got a little silly.
Its time to leave for a while again.
Over and out.

Slowing down on unfamiliar roads IS the tool that you need to survive! The track is the place to push it, not unfamiliar roads. If you entered a decreasing radius turn faster than your current abilities allow, knowing what countersteering is is not going to save your ass. It's just not. Riding slower when you aren't sure whats around the corner is.
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Old 08-28-2013, 05:58 AM   #896
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
Slowing down on unfamiliar roads IS the tool that you need to survive! The track is the place to push it, not unfamiliar roads. If you entered a decreasing radius turn faster than your current abilities allow, knowing what countersteering is is not going to save your ass. It's just not. Riding slower when you aren't sure whats around the corner is.
The key here is "faster than your current abilities allow" I live for twisty roads, gassing it in the straights and parking it in the corners is what many do, developing and practicing to raise your skill is a better approach than just slowing down.


Riding curvy unfamiliar roads, you don't need to think counter steering, you need to PRACTICE it! Track days are the BEST way to gain the skill and practice it over and over in a way that the street cannot offer. Also teaches you to look where you want to GO.

I can read all day about how skis need to be angled and what inputs are needed to carve a turn, but I will never be able to ski well without practice, if I have to think about every action and reaction I am on the ground before i can say $hit.

If you want to be an expert at counter steering, stop analyzing the process and go to a track day!

PFFOG screwed with this post 08-28-2013 at 06:19 AM
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Old 08-28-2013, 07:53 AM   #897
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
If you entered the curve too fast for you to handle (say 35mph) that is where the problem is. Knowing what countersteering is isn't going to save your ass. And, if you have a hard time slowing in a curve when necessary, maybe that is what you should be practicing. That and looking at mph signs.
Nope, I have direct experience that CS does and DID save my ass. I'll admit my mistake was entering the turn too fast, because I assumed it would follow the path I read in the terrain and tree lines (south central Missouri, no signage for speed). It was a right hand cresting turn that got tighter. I maintained throttle position, pressed in harder on the right grip and, looked to the turn exit (not at the approaching pickup in the other lane), the bike tracked exactly where I wanted and continued on.

Sure, I reminded myself I got lucky and pulled it off, slowed down some. But CS definitely worked. Keith Code and numerous other cycle riding experts verify it works, so arguement over. I agree with Pffog above. Abilities and practice trump just going slow all the time. Worked well for my downhill skiing capabilites too.
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Old 08-29-2013, 12:34 AM   #898
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don't be confused. its not a thinking thing, it just is. if it weren't we'd all hit the pavement first thing out of the driveway
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Old 08-29-2013, 01:52 AM   #899
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Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post
So,..what do you do on that unfamiliar twisty road,...when the curve you entered at 35mph is now getting tighter as a decreasing radius?

Slow down more yet? On many bikes the act of slowing down causes the bike to drift wider because the act of slowing down causes the bike to stand up and decrease lean angle. This is a classic example of maintaining steady throttle, reasonble lean angle (room to spare to lean more if needed) and countersteering to maintain the path of travel YOU want.

Twisty roads are not just about speed, but more so about control. Countersteering is not just about twisty roads,...its about control, whenever and whereever you need it. That fact that many riders never learn countersteering control, or use it, is why many of them crash. It is that much more than speed.
you don't need to know about the theories of countersteering to actually be able to just do it. when you need a tighter radius, you just tighten your radius, no matter if you know how you just did that. you don't think about twisting your throttle in order to get faster, do you?
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:39 AM   #900
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you don't need to know about the theories of countersteering to actually be able to just do it. when you need a tighter radius, you just tighten your radius, no matter if you know how you just did that. you don't think about twisting your throttle in order to get faster, do you?
After causing commotion with MSF "counterweighting" (slow speed steering instead of turning), I think the last word on this is above.

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