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Old 08-29-2013, 05:32 AM   #901
joexr
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Originally Posted by DudeClone View Post
don't be confused. its not a thinking thing, it just is. if it weren't we'd all hit the pavement first thing out of the driveway
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Originally Posted by Derbobs View Post
you don't need to know about the theories of countersteering to actually be able to just do it. when you need a tighter radius, you just tighten your radius, no matter if you know how you just did that. you don't think about twisting your throttle in order to get faster, do you?
I've said this before myself. One of the MSF guys , who repeatedly hits the pavement trying to get out of the driveway , will be along to discount this. I guess sometimes you have to justify your job. Like they say - those who can't do , teach.
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Old 08-29-2013, 05:33 AM   #902
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Originally Posted by Derbobs View Post
you don't need to know about the theories of countersteering to actually be able to just do it. when you need a tighter radius, you just tighten your radius, no matter if you know how you just did that. you don't think about twisting your throttle in order to get faster, do you?
Yes, it is too much to learn. Let's not teach about one of the key safety techniques for riding a motorcycle.

And your analogy is wrong. Twisting the throttle is intuitive. Counter steering is "counter" intuitive. But it can become intuitive, once one knows how it works, when people know the importance to do it (besides to initiate a turn, of course, because that one everyone does even if they never heard the word countersteering).

Once people have a chance to experience it on a purposeful way and start using it, it can become second nature. You would benefit from that, I'm sure.
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Old 08-29-2013, 06:15 AM   #903
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We're ALL wasting our breath here. Those of us that just GET countersteering will always excel at riding and those that HAD TO BE taught it will always suck at it. I'm not going to convince you that you may never ride well and you're not going to convince me that I must have forgotten about countersteering instruction when I learned to ride a bicycle as a child.
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Old 08-29-2013, 06:29 AM   #904
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I've come to a conlcusion about this whole discussion. I think it depends on your personal riding style and how you like to ride a motorcycle. Apparently some people (maybe the majority of people) simply like to meander about on their bike, not really putting much thought or effort into it. Those people are perfectly safe motrcyclists, and as long as they leave themselves plenty of room for error they should have no problems at all.

I'm not like that. I spend my whole life thinking, "Can I go a little faster? Can I lean this bike a little more? Can I roll on a tiny bit more throttle? Am I looking in the right spot? Is this a good line? Is my body position good? Is my upper body relaxed?" Etc. Etc. My whole ride is an unending series of questions, answers, and adjustments. I'm constantly thinking about countersteering, throttle adjustments, and a whole host of other inputs.

Here's an example There's a new off ramp near my house. It's a little tricky because it starts out banked, then the banking goes away, and it's even a little banked in the wrong direction at the end of the turn as the curve reverses. The first time I was on it I found myself being pushed toward the outside edge as the banking went away. I wasn't on the edge of traction, but I was close enough so that correcting my line took a very small but very deliberate input on my part. I was able to do it (with aplomb, I might add) because I'm constantly thinking about it. If you were riding at 5/10ths you wouldn't even notice the banking going away, much less have to make a correction. I'm convinced that's the difference.
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:52 AM   #905
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And your analogy is wrong. Twisting the throttle is intuitive.
and so is countersteering. thats why EVERYBODY does it EVERY DAY for hundreds or thousands of times.

edit: btw, twisting the throttle is not exactly intuitive. you had to learn once that twisting up = power on, and twisting down = power off. it is nothing natural or logical, it is just built like that. technically, you could easily revert that. you couldn't do that with countersteering, because it simply is the ONLY way of steering a bike.
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Old 08-29-2013, 11:40 AM   #906
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Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
Yes, it is too much to learn. Let's not teach about one of the key safety techniques for riding a motorcycle.

And your analogy is wrong. Twisting the throttle is intuitive. Counter steering is "counter" intuitive. But it can become intuitive, once one knows how it works, when people know the importance to do it (besides to initiate a turn, of course, because that one everyone does even if they never heard the word countersteering).

Once people have a chance to experience it on a purposeful way and start using it, it can become second nature. You would benefit from that, I'm sure.
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Originally Posted by Derbobs View Post
and so is countersteering. thats why EVERYBODY does it EVERY DAY for hundreds or thousands of times.

edit: btw, twisting the throttle is not exactly intuitive. you had to learn once that twisting up = power on, and twisting down = power off. it is nothing natural or logical, it is just built like that. technically, you could easily revert that. you couldn't do that with countersteering, because it simply is the ONLY way of steering a bike.
Next time you quote me, do it properly. You left out the part where you agree with me. And you were the one mentioning twisting the throttle as something you do without need to think about it.

I was talking about another use of counter steering. Some people don't know how to tighten a radius. What is probably one of the most common motorcycle crashes while on curves? Riders losing control, losing traction for using the brakes (front brakes to lowside or run wide, rear brakes for highside) before trying to tighten the radius by leaning more. That means, using the brakes is intuitive, countersteering not so much.
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:04 PM   #907
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
We're ALL wasting our breath here. Those of us that just GET countersteering will always excel at riding and those that HAD TO BE taught it will always suck at it. I'm not going to convince you that you may never ride well and you're not going to convince me that I must have forgotten about countersteering instruction when I learned to ride a bicycle as a child.
There is a reason why California Superbike School had to make the No B.S. bike. If they didn't need to teach people how to counter-steer at their school then they wouldn't need it.

Even though you may have never been "taught" counter-steering you still have a fundamental understanding of it that you figured out on your own (like many riders). The fact that you know what counter-steering is in general proves that. The problem is there are still WAY TO MANY riders out there who have no idea what counter-steering is and they don't have that understanding. They literally don't have any accurate idea as to how they turn a motorcycle! That's why it needs to be taught to ensure safer riding and/or faster riding. Not everyone needs to know the theories behind it but everyone does need to understand it to ride safe.

I didn't know anything about how a motorcycle steers or how is stays stable for most of my riding experience. When I did start teaching myself about how motorcycles work it gave me more confidence with my riding. On the track my mind set completely changed from "I need to control this thing!" into "The bike takes care of itself, I just need to point it in the right direction." That change in mindset and confidence let me ride loose but in control and knocked seconds off of my times around the motocross track from the point I was stuck at for a while. It helped me become a much safer rider on the street especially on the fun twisty roads.
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:25 PM   #908
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Originally Posted by Derbobs View Post
and so is countersteering. thats why EVERYBODY does it EVERY DAY for hundreds or thousands of times.

edit: btw, twisting the throttle is not exactly intuitive. you had to learn once that twisting up = power on, and twisting down = power off. it is nothing natural or logical, it is just built like that. technically, you could easily revert that. you couldn't do that with countersteering, because it simply is the ONLY way of steering a bike.
To continue the argument of the importance of training and learning about counter steering:

The counter steering scenario I'm discussing is NOT the one action that starts the lean and will initiate the curve (the counter steering most riders don't even know they do), but the counter steering action needed to make trajectory corrections while already in the curve (the one you and others claim is not necessary for people to learn) or to swerve from an obstacle ahead. I'm going to quote here select findings from the old Hurt report:

"Motorcycle riders in (...) accidents showed significant collision avoidance problems. Most riders would over-brake and skid the rear wheel, and under-brake the front wheel greatly reducing collision avoidance deceleration. The ability to countersteer and swerve was essentially absent."

"In the single vehicle accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the accident precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases, with the typical error being a slide-out and fall due to over-braking or running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering."

"The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents."
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Old 08-29-2013, 04:51 PM   #909
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I have taught my 5 year old how to ride a bicycle, and am teaching my 2.5 year old how to ride a bike. I can firmly say, without a doubt , countersteering is not intuitive.

People figure it out, the majority don't even know they are doing it, but there's nothing intuitive about it.
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Old 08-29-2013, 05:06 PM   #910
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quote from somewhere idk

"While this appears to be a complex sequence of motions, it is performed by every child who rides a bicycle. The entire sequence goes largely unnoticed by most riders, which is why some assert that they do not do it"
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:20 PM   #911
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quote from somewhere idk

"While this appears to be a complex sequence of motions, it is performed by every child who learns to ride a bicycle. The entire sequence goes largely unnoticed by most riders, which is why some assert that they do not do it"
Fixed.

Some people learn by doing, some people learn by discussing, everyone improves with practice. It's why racers watch videos of themselves. So they can get feedback and improve.

Teach a man about counter steering, and he might get it right when that decreasing radius turn comes up, and he has to choose between shitting himself or pushing on the the bars. He'll know which one is more effective at making a motorcycle go around a turn.
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:03 PM   #912
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A new rider, a returning rider or even a long time "seldom" rider should be taught what to do and how to counteract that human condition we ALL have when their heart starts racing as they enter a turn at and for whatever reason they perceive that they are going to fast.

To counteract this human condition you COUNTERsteer. If not you succumb to it... Target fixate and things go bad.

Counter steering should be both taught and practiced to the point that it IS an automatic response.

All you people that are saying JUST DO IT are assholes that are going to get people hurt or worse with your shit advice.
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Old 08-29-2013, 10:47 PM   #913
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Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
Yes, it is too much to learn. Let's not teach about one of the key safety techniques for riding a motorcycle.

And your analogy is wrong. Twisting the throttle is intuitive. Counter steering is "counter" intuitive. But it can become intuitive, once one knows how it works, when people know the importance to do it (besides to initiate a turn, of course, because that one everyone does even if they never heard the word countersteering).

Once people have a chance to experience it on a purposeful way and start using it, it can become second nature. You would benefit from that, I'm sure.
Here they teach the learners course without teaching the theory of countersteering by just teaching learners to "point their head where they want to go". This automatically means that people are leaning on that bar and countersteering even if they don't know it. Riders find out later they are doing it and why countersteering works.

Teaching the theory seems it would just confuse people.
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Old 08-29-2013, 11:08 PM   #914
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Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
I was talking about another use of counter steering. Some people don't know how to tighten a radius. What is probably one of the most common motorcycle crashes while on curves? Riders losing control, losing traction for using the brakes (front brakes to lowside or run wide, rear brakes for highside) before trying to tighten the radius by leaning more. That means, using the brakes is intuitive, countersteering not so much.
those people can not tighten the radius because they are scared of lean angle or scared of washing out (or scared in some other way because they got into a situation they didn't expect) not because they don't know how to turn. they COULD turn tighter if they knew that would be the best solution. that's where the problem is, people can not cope with those situations, but it has nothing to do with their (non-)ability to turn a bike.

in most of those cases ABS would be an effective solution, but there's still too many bikes without ABS on the roads.
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Old 08-30-2013, 06:21 AM   #915
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those people can not tighten the radius because they are scared of lean angle or scared of washing out (or scared in some other way because they got into a situation they didn't expect) not because they don't know how to turn. they COULD turn tighter if they knew that would be the best solution. that's where the problem is, people can not cope with those situations, but it has nothing to do with their (non-)ability to turn a bike.

in most of those cases ABS would be an effective solution, but there's still too many bikes without ABS on the roads.
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