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Old 08-30-2013, 06:29 AM   #916
hippiebrian
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Here's the reality. I learned to ride a bicycle when I was 4. I have ridden either a bicycle or motorcycle or both since. I was over 30 when I first even heard the word countersteer, even though I had been doing it for over 25 years. Why did I not have my first road crash until I was 40, after I had learned what countersteering was? (Hint, the crash wasn't entirely my fault other than not paying attention to other traffic as much as I should have).

Here's the answer. I've been taking curves since I was on the Honda ct70, as I was taught by my uncle, by slowing, looking and accelerating. A few "pucker" moments early on taught me to practice more and increase my speed in corners only as my ability increased and to use a speed that allowed me to avoid rocks, sand, and vehicles crossing the double yellow. Consiously countersteering never entered the picture.
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Old 08-30-2013, 06:42 AM   #917
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posts 906-912 hit it square. after that not so much. I really think the "don't teach it crowd " doesn't know it. they think they do ,but they don't.

I disagree(just a little) with the track day advice. at a track day you would be learning to be smoother, faster, kiss the mirrors, brake in and accelerate out etc. all great things to get better at, but, what needs to be practiced on the street is automatic ,reflex response.
the rider needs to swerve without having to move the upper body or weight the pegs(which is nonsense on the street anyway), this is not something that is typically practiced at a track day. also repetition is key, one day 2 or 3 times a year isn't going to cut it.
the local LEO may not like it, but swerving down a empty highway for mile after mile is the best way to build muscle memory.
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Old 08-30-2013, 06:50 AM   #918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derbobs View Post
....... countersteering, because it simply is the ONLY way of steering a bike.

Perhaps one of motorcyclings challenges you have yet to accomplish is riding backwards.
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Old 08-30-2013, 12:09 PM   #919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerstu View Post
posts 906-912 hit it square. after that not so much. I really think the "don't teach it crowd " doesn't know it. they think they do ,but they don't.

I disagree(just a little) with the track day advice. at a track day you would be learning to be smoother, faster, kiss the mirrors, brake in and accelerate out etc. all great things to get better at, but, what needs to be practiced on the street is automatic ,reflex response.
the rider needs to swerve without having to move the upper body or weight the pegs(which is nonsense on the street anyway), this is not something that is typically practiced at a track day. also repetition is key, one day 2 or 3 times a year isn't going to cut it.
the local LEO may not like it, but swerving down a empty highway for mile after mile is the best way to build muscle memory.
What don't I know? I know that physics require countersteering and, just like gravity, physics works wether I understand it or not. Anyone who can change direction on a motorcycle at speed (I think it's something like 5 or 6 mph where this kicks is) is countersteering. They don't need to know they are, they just are.

They need to know to turn their heads and look through the curve. They don't need to know the physics behind it. The less a new rider has cluttering their head, the clearer they are when practicing and riding. That is nothing but a good thing.
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Old 08-30-2013, 05:33 PM   #920
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the saying is "you can't know what you don't know"
countersteering in the way any single track vehicle steers the instant you pick your feet off the ground. there is no "speed" at which it kicks in.
while looking where you want to go probably makes a rider countersteer it isn't going to do the job when there is no time to turn the head and look. when what's called for is a quick yank on the bars.
also push and pull should be equally easy. I.E. a sharp swerve and recovery should be automatic with either hand.
I can't help but think you are sure you know how to aggressively counteersteer but you really don't . like several people have said in this thread , they rode for years but only thought they knew what they were doing.

why are you so dead set on this not being important ?
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Old 08-30-2013, 06:20 PM   #921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
What don't I know? I know that physics require countersteering and, just like gravity, physics works wether I understand it or not. Anyone who can change direction on a motorcycle at speed (I think it's something like 5 or 6 mph where this kicks is) is countersteering. They don't need to know they are, they just are.

They need to know to turn their heads and look through the curve. They don't need to know the physics behind it. The less a new rider has cluttering their head, the clearer they are when practicing and riding. That is nothing but a good thing.


If it is so easy, why did that guy go wide in the corner on the Dragon and go flying over that vehicles hood??? Countersteering in a panic situation doesn't come naturally. You have to understand it to be able to use it when you need it most. And you are countersteering balancing on the pegs at a standstill. It doesn't " Kick" in at 5 mph.
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Old 08-30-2013, 06:29 PM   #922
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WOW! I find it hard to believe this thread is STILL going and going and going (like the pink bunny).

I rode and rode and rode bicycles growing up and put more miles on them then any other kid I know. But, for the most part, I do not believe that I spent enough time at speed where counter steering was required.

There are a LOT of good videos showing that counter steering is NOT required to turn a two wheeled vehicle at all speeds.

My favorite video is in this thread and is "counter weighting vs counter steering" and it is my favorite so far because it presents the issues going on so well.

Like a spinning top on its point, the top does not come to a complete stop in it's spinning before the spinning is not enough to keep it upright.

Counter steering on my small DR200 happens between 25-30 mph and seems to be affected by my placement of my heavy ass on the bike.

If I want to turn really sharp at low speeds, I MUST counter weight.

Counter steering is a REALLY EASY way to counter for high speed wind gusts on either side while riding highway speeds.

My friend told me that I counter weight when he thinks I should counter steer. Maybe I have a better "feel" for what the gyroscopes are doing at the speed I'm going???

I'd like to see someone ride the the "No BS Bike" without any hands on either set of "bars". Maybe some type of electronic cable control where the rider can have their hands in the air and still command the throttle, clutch, and brakes.

I think limiting, and locking down, the body mass of a person by having them hold onto fixed bars is affecting how that rider would normally counter weight.

The top falls over before the top stops spinning completely; there is a point of uncertainty.

Why don't snowmobiles fall over when stopped?
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:01 PM   #923
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprig View Post
............Why don't snowmobiles fall over when stopped?
Maybe for the same reason that they don't have to bank to turn?

Bikes must lean to turn.
The rider must force that lean because the bike is perfectly happy being vertical.

Like a judoka (Judo practitioner) does to an adversary, the rider must throw the bike out of balance.
He has several ways to achieve that: have a friend kick the bike sideways, move his weight over and wait or use the handy and powerful steering bar for a more immediate throw.

lnewqban screwed with this post 08-30-2013 at 07:14 PM
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:20 PM   #924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprig View Post
the top does not come to a complete stop in it's spinning before the spinning is not enough to keep it upright.
The simplicity of the physics have been revealed.

Perhaps if the countersteering zealots we able to measure their dogma with this relevation much of their confusion would be relieved.
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:24 PM   #925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprig View Post
I rode and rode and rode bicycles growing up and put more miles on them then any other kid I know. But, for the most part, I do not believe that I spent enough time at speed where counter steering was required.
And what is this mythical speed in your opinion?

Hint The ONLY correct answer is: Moving forward

If you were moving... You WERE COUNTERSTEERING!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprig View Post
Counter steering on my small DR200 happens between 25-30 mph and seems to be affected by my placement of my heavy ass on the bike.
If you believe this (25-30 mph bullshit) you are a fool.
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:36 PM   #926
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Originally Posted by Vertical C View Post
Here they teach the learners course without teaching the theory of countersteering by just teaching learners to "point their head where they want to go". This automatically means that people are leaning on that bar and countersteering even if they don't know it. Riders find out later they are doing it and why countersteering works.

Teaching the theory seems it would just confuse people.
Confuse? OK, compare this:

"Point their head where they want to go".
and
"Push the handgrip where they want to go".

There, it is even the same amount of words.
That learners course over there does not do its students any favor.
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:36 PM   #927
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I gave my old partner my Twist of the Wrist collection as he decided to start riding and picked up a new GSXR 750 (back in 2000) to learn on . A week later he asked me how often I countersteered, my initial response was Tuesdays & Thursdays, unless it was leap year. He ended up wadding himself into a ditch, no injury. Replaced it with an R1.
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Old 08-30-2013, 08:21 PM   #928
Rucksta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
And what is this mythical speed in your opinion?
Hint The ONLY correct answer is: Moving forward.
Now we are making progress of sorts.
Dakaz tells us countersteering is not an absolute and only works when going forwards.

Could this be a crack in the wall of the temple of countersteering fundamentalism?

Does physics care or even know which direction the bike is moving?

Countersteering effect (gyroscopic precession) could posibly work going backwards but I don't know of anyone who
has controlled a bike backwards fast enough to have reached speed sufficient for the gyroscopic effect to kick in.
I have observed sudden loss of control from riders who appeared to previously have "mastered" the art of rolling back off a hill for a another go.

Maybe one of the acolytes would provide some experimental data.
A large half pipe may provide a suitable test environment
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:17 AM   #929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
...
If you believe this (25-30 mph bullshit) you are a fool.
Ok, I'm a fool.

I'm trying to teach my son to ride safely. He is currently only riding about 20mph top speed (local area limit that he respects and follows) and even though I have shown him the counter weighting vs counter steering video, he says that he can't understand how counter steering works; but he hasn't yet pushed the bike any faster then the posted limit.

A spinning top does NOT stay up just because it is spinning a "little". There is some point where a spinning top is not spinning fast enough to remain upright.

I've seen video of guys standing upon the seat and navigating to maintain center of lane. How is that counter steer thing working then?

I've seen video of motorcycles with wide open throttle change from being on the ground to righting themselves and charging ahead on two wheels WITHOUT a rider (no rider ... ).

I'm a fool ...

hrrmmm,

Counter steering is something everyone must learn, as well as looking where you want to go.

Was on a section of 129 and had an Orange pickup go over the center line, and took away my prefect line. Look right for an out and see a wall of garbage dumpsters.

My only choice was a very imperfect line on the pavement that was between the truck and the garbage bins. I actually mentally turned my head where I wanted to go, locked my eyes forward with my head, and counter steered like crazy trying to avoid impact with the garbage dumpsters.

The tires held the line ... I almost had to change underwear.

Counter steering works when you are going fast enough, and is the ONLY way one can control the machine when the gyros are going faster then the spinning top that falls over.

I don't really think I am a fool.

Spinning things exhibit different behavior depending upon how fast they are spinning.

I believe in both counter weight and counter steer ... and it all depends on how fast the spinning things are spinning.
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:29 AM   #930
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Countersteering does not rely on gyroscopic precession! You could have wheels made of light and it would still work!

Think about this: when driving a car, if you turn to the right which way does the body go? It goes to the left and it has shit to do with gyroscopes or centrifuges.
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