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Old 09-05-2013, 12:11 PM   #1021
aferiksson
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This is one of the tests we have to do to get our license over here (and I still haven't done it). It not that easy to see, but I think there's a lot of countersteering going on there to keep the balance at a speed that low:



We're not allowed to put a foot down during this test, and as my teacher explained it to me it would impossible not to without countersteering ...
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:20 PM   #1022
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Jesus fucking Christ, I share the road with some of these people!
That's why I ride dirt
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:47 PM   #1023
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There's zero counter steering going on here. You're not going fast enough, therefore limited gyroscopic effect.

Simple fact is that, if you're able to turn the handlebars in the direction you're going to steer, its not countersteering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aferiksson View Post
This is one of the tests we have to do to get our license over here (and I still haven't done it). It not that easy to see, but I think there's a lot of countersteering going on there to keep the balance at a speed that low:



We're not allowed to put a foot down during this test, and as my teacher explained it to me it would impossible not to without countersteering ...
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Old 09-05-2013, 01:18 PM   #1024
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Yes all true.

Another technique as mentioned a post or two ago in a is to break the rear loose either with rear brake, down shift or a combination of both.
Once the rear is sliding you lean into the turn (let the bike fall in that direction a waggle of the bum on seat helps ensure the rear steps out in the desired direction),
apply throttle untill you balance the rear spin with the rear slip angle and drive into the turn.

This will tighten the turn and eventually lead to the back wheel overtaking the front until correction is made with the bars turning to the outside of the turn (turn into the skid)
No actual countersteering involved to initiate or sustain the turn.
In fact the "countersteering " or oposite lock action widens the turn

There is a little more to this argument with rear wheel gyroscopics - maybe we can touch on that later.

Another way to initiate drift is to approach a turn two thirds to the outside and give a quick jab at the bars (countersteer)
If the jab is forcefull enought the front will break out before it turns out and the drift can be set up with throttle to push the front end and break the back loose.

If I'm not feeling quite that brave or commited a combination of a quick jab at the bars and a stab at the front brake will achive the same result.

Combining the jab. stab and a harsh downshift with a bit of rear trail brake to moderate the downshift can acheive good results.
With some rear trail brake I can keep the engine loaded ready to respond and break traction (spin) on the rear by releasing the brake pedal.

I like a dry clutch and find the recluse clutch counter productive but that could be due to sucky rear brakes.

I find riders who are adept at these techniques can drift the whole way through a turn smoothly instead of having to face that nervous point post apex where you transition from a normal entry into a roosting / sliding exit.
The transition point is where you are most likely to experience the high /low side event so setting up the tranition on entry when the bike is upright reduces the chances of either.(unless you run out of grunt or find a sticky bit and hook the rear when cranked over.

So yes countersteering to induce the slide is a valid technique but there is more than one way set up for a drift.
The thought of practicing the above makes my sphincter tighten. My very few experiences drifting a turn, unwillingly and briefly, were universally stupid - usually too hot into a turn, or the guy in front checks up in a hot corner and I trail brake and countersteer, and break loose the back tire for a few scary seconds. To put it mildly, it was a nervous point. Headed to the track in a few weeks, any practice suggestions to ease into it and avoid the high side?
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Old 09-05-2013, 02:11 PM   #1025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonpig View Post
There's zero counter steering going on here. You're not going fast enough, therefore limited gyroscopic effect.

Simple fact is that, if you're able to turn the handlebars in the direction you're going to steer, its not countersteering.
Ah.. the gyroscopic effect - but that doesn't really have much to do with countersteering as I get it. The point is the turn is always initiated by countersteering (just a tiny bit of it in this case) and then the wheel is turned into the curve.

When a kid learns to ride a bicycle with training wheels, they almost always fall over the first turn they try to make, since they turn the handlesbars into the direction they want to go - and then lean over in the other direction and fall. You always have to counterbalance any single track vehicle regardless of speed, but when you're in balance the front wheel can very well point into the direction your going (or the single wheel if you only have that).
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Old 09-05-2013, 02:35 PM   #1026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stucknarut View Post
.............Headed to the track in a few weeks, any practice suggestions to ease into it and avoid the high side?
Here you go:

http://www.mistihurst.com/files/J_F_07.pdf

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Old 09-05-2013, 03:14 PM   #1027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonpig View Post
There's zero counter steering going on here. You're not going fast enough, therefore limited gyroscopic effect.

Simple fact is that, if you're able to turn the handlebars in the direction you're going to steer, its not countersteering.


You don't know what you are talking about so why don't you just ?


There is most definitely counter steering taking place throughout that video.
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Old 09-05-2013, 03:39 PM   #1028
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I have been riding bikes for 50 years so I know the score, I also know that time does not mean I am an expert, but I am still alive and still riding.

What I do know is.............this thread is fucking hilarious.



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Old 09-05-2013, 04:09 PM   #1029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonpig View Post
There's zero counter steering going on here. You're not going fast enough, therefore limited gyroscopic effect.

Simple fact is that, if you're able to turn the handlebars in the direction you're going to steer, its not countersteering.
I agree with Simonpig in this one.

For such small speeds, forces created by counter-steering and gyroscopes (both depend on speed) are so small that are easily overpowered by the effects of body balance, steering geometry and even tires' profile.

That was discussed in page 47 of this thread:
http://advrider.com/forums/showthrea...852075&page=47


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Old 09-05-2013, 04:17 PM   #1030
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I agree with Simonpig in this one.
Really? Please tell the class just how the rider got the bike to fall into the turn so he could steer into the turn without FIRST counter steering away from the turn to make the bike fall into the turn.

Hint: The rider is counter steering.
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Old 09-05-2013, 05:14 PM   #1031
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Let me put it this way DUDE. You could go from 3 mph to 1 mph lean your balance (body) over to the left, the bike falls to the left without you doing anything to the handlebars, but then you turn your handlebar the left (to maintain balance) and gas it up a little bit to "up the limited gyroscope effect" to stand the bike up and continue on your merry way.

Sure you could push the handlebar to the left when you're going 3mph and the bike will lean to the left using countersteering, but why the hell would you need to? You would just almost immediately correct it by turning your handlebar back the other direction to maintain balance (because you're going too slow), something you would do on a bicycle.

The problem I have is that people use a bicycle as an example and then try to scale it up to motorcycles. Yes, somethings don't change, but many other things do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
You don't know what you are talking about so why don't you just ?


There is most definitely counter steering taking place throughout that video.
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Old 09-05-2013, 05:21 PM   #1032
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Yes, It's very funny that people get heated. But it's still worth talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outrunner View Post
I have been riding bikes for 50 years so I know the score, I also know that time does not mean I am an expert, but I am still alive and still riding.

What I do know is.............this thread is fucking hilarious.



Andy.
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Old 09-05-2013, 05:21 PM   #1033
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Originally Posted by simonpig View Post
Let me put it this way DUDE. You could go from 3 mph to 1 mph lean your balance (body) over to the left, the bike falls to the left without you doing anything to the handlebars, ...

Yes but you still initiated a counter steer. (the wheel pointed to the outside to allow the bike to fall inside) Pushing on the inside bar is the most efficient way to initiate a counter steer. NOT the only way.

Without a counter steer taking place the bike would simply fall over. (At any speed)
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Old 09-05-2013, 05:27 PM   #1034
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Let's go around this circle one more time

..

You can't think of countersteering as a long drawn out affair. Countersteering is done in small increments. When the bike is going into or coming out of a lean, just the time when it is going up or down, you are countersteering. All other time in the turns you are steering the bike through the turn.

Because I don't want to argue about any of this let me add, there might be exceptions to the statement above that include, but are not limited to, such things as when accelerating through or out of a turn, The acceleration tends to make the bike want to stand up so you might have to hold counteersteering pressure if you desire that the bike does not respond to the acceleration. There are other factors that figure into the equation as well. Road surface will affect suspension travel which affects geometry which requires us to make those many small and nearly continuous corrections.

You don't have to be straight up to countersteer. If you are in a turn and need to lean further you countersteer. When you need to stand the bike back up you countersteer. Countersteering is any time you turn the wheel opposite of the desired direction of travel, most often in tiny increments. Even the tiniest direction correction requires countersteering. Fast or slow doesn't matter, under normal riding conditions and body placement on the bike, if you are moving forward and successfully make it around a turn, you will have counteersteered.

Each action gets a reaction so riding is a dynamic experience with lots of things constantly changing, we respond almost naturally to those changing needs. The more we ride the better we get, whether we understand the physics or not.
..
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Old 09-05-2013, 05:34 PM   #1035
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Originally Posted by stucknarut View Post
The thought of practicing the above makes my sphincter tighten. My very few experiences drifting a turn, unwillingly and briefly, were universally stupid - usually too hot into a turn, or the guy in front checks up in a hot corner and I trail brake and countersteer, and break loose the back tire for a few scary seconds. To put it mildly, it was a nervous point. Headed to the track in a few weeks, any practice suggestions to ease into it and avoid the high side?
A clapped out car on a rough dirt oval is not a bad place to start.
Playing Dukes of Hazard at a disused quarry is lots for fun and brings out the inner redneck in all of us.

Then when you are on the bike.

Find a grassy area and practice sliding straight with the rear wheel locked.
Try sawing th bars left /right and get the feel for the way the bike steps out.
Next try a bit of a bum waggle and get used to the effect.
As you get more amplitude in the step out start to try and ride out of it under power.

Now lay out 4 cones in a square.
Ride the square and lock the rear wheel to make the turn - again experiment with bum waggle and bar sawing.
Progress to sliding in , power out.

All good rear wheel exercises.

Now try doing donuts on the grass, foot down
Most riders like to start with a counter clockwise circle turning left.

After you start to get the hang of it examine the patern in the grass.
You should be seeing the front wheel makes the small circle and the rear a larger one.

Try to expand the diameter of the front circle.
Inside leg forward or weight on the outside peg will have the effect (peg weighting will require the use of much more throttle)
You may need to hop a bit.


Go back to the square of cones and repeat the exercise with a bit more gusto sliding in on the rear and powering out with a rear wheel slide..
Reverse direction and repeat

As your confidence increases you will start to get the feel of the transition point in each direction

Now lay out a figure 8 start small an work up.
The object is to produce a smooth transition from left drift to right drift.

Change direction

Go back to the straight line area where you practiced rear brake sliding.
Do it with front brake until you start to lock up the front an produce a skid.
Take small steps until you start to gain some confidencce you can recover from a front wheel lock up.
When you have some confidence experiment with minor direction changes

Advise not using a bike with a fairing.or it will get expensive

If there is a go cart or motard track have a play there before hitting the big track (pun intended)
Circulate and find a corner you like with plenty of run off.
Set up a line with a deep wide entry aiming for a late apex and flatish exit using handlebar pressure.
Push deeper on sucessive laps until you feel the front wanting to let go.
Overcome your natural reaction to back off or straighten up and instead power on through the curve.
Go cart tracks usually have lots of run off area and the speeds are relatively low.
The surface is usaully well rubbered and produces a consistant slide.

You may need to experiment with tyre pressures to get a comfortable balance where you are confident about which end of the bike is the stickiest.

If it all goes pear shaped a front wheel washout most often results in a low side.


This is all bad advise if you practice this unsupervised.
You will fall off - the aim is to minimise the damage to both your self and your bike.


A dirt bike with street tyres is the least risky place to start and you don't have to do all these exercises in a single sitting.
You may like to try the off tramac stuff away from the track so you can maximise your track time.

AND there is nothing better than a dirt bike to refine your bike handling skills but that is a topic of countless other threads.


Sorry for the long post I got a bit carried away.
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