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Old 09-06-2013, 11:23 AM   #1081
farmerstu
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how can so many people who ride have absolutly no clue! the above post is so full of b.s. it would take a payloader to shovel it. every single statement you made is just wrong.
no offence. but if you think that is the best way, or even A way then you need to get some real training.
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Old 09-06-2013, 01:26 PM   #1082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btao View Post

................Try standing up on some twisties and simply focus ahead, and use a subtle head movement to lead the new direction you want to head instead of pushing the bars. .............................
I appreciate your support, and theory on RB's riding style, but, I really do believe he does countersteer when riding. Consciously or subconsciously we all do.

Everybody sing along now, The head bones connected to the neck bone, the neck bones connected to the shoulder bone, the shoulder bones connected to the arm bone the arm bone is connected to the hand bone, I don't think these are the right words, or even technically correct, but you get the point. When we focus on where we want to go, we get there because the body responds in ways we sometimes can't measure.

I was flying with a friend once in a small 6 passenger twin engine plane. It was about a two hundred fifty mile trip and there was turbulence all the way. I'm not real used to flying but his wife sat in a back seat reading with her feet propped up while I rode in the copilot position and based on her seemingly calm demeanor, I tried not to be concerned. I noticed the pilot's hands constantly making adjustments on the stick, but the plane was not moving in concert with what he was doing. At some point I asked him about the necessity of hands on flying when he had the auto pilot on. He explained that he could make counter moves to the turbulence, smoother and quicker than the auto pilot. I don't know if that was true or not, but I do know that it became apparent that he was responding to the turbulence and that's why the plane didn't move in concert with his actions. He was instinctively feeling and responding to the planes movement, as a "counter" measure. In the sky there is no guard rail, or tree line, or edge of road, he was doing this completely by feel. I think after some road mileage we ride our bikes the same way.

..
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Old 09-06-2013, 01:43 PM   #1083
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Originally Posted by Center-stand View Post
I appreciate your support, and theory on RB's riding style, but, I really do believe he does countersteer when riding. Consciously or subconsciously we all do.

Everybody sing along now, The head bones connected to the neck bone, the neck bones connected to the shoulder bone, the shoulder bones connected to the arm bone the arm bone is connected to the hand bone, I don't think these are the right words, or even technically correct, but you get the point. When we focus on where we want to go, we get there because the body responds in ways we sometimes can't measure.

I was flying with a friend once in a small 6 passenger twin engine plane. It was about a two hundred fifty mile trip and there was turbulence all the way. I'm not real used to flying but his wife sat in a back seat reading with her feet propped up while I rode in the copilot position and based on her seemingly calm demeanor, I tried not to be concerned. I noticed the pilot's hands constantly making adjustments on the stick, but the plane was not moving in concert with what he was doing. At some point I asked him about the necessity of hands on flying when he had the auto pilot on. He explained that he could make counter moves to the turbulence, smoother and quicker than the auto pilot. I don't know if that was true or not, but I do know that it became apparent that he was responding to the turbulence and that's why the plane didn't move in concert with his actions. He was instinctively feeling and responding to the planes movement, as a "counter" measure. In the sky there is no guard rail, or tree line, or edge of road, he was doing this completely by feel. I think after some road mileage we ride our bikes the same way.

..
everything in this post i can agree with. my position is a rider needs to learn that aggressively pulling or pushing on the bars need not be accompanied by turning the head or leaning the upper body or hanging off or anything else. i think a lot of the discord on this thread is about the difference between countersteering, the only way to steer, period.(even riding with no hands on the bars the bike countersteers to lean first. ) and being real aggressive with it. way too many don't understand the agressive part.
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Old 09-06-2013, 01:49 PM   #1084
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klay View Post


Oh, it follows the "trajectory," eh? And it grows in a "quadratic ratio?"
Yes, Sir, .......or so I believe.

If things happen this way or not, if we believe we know this or that, is not important for riding a motorcycle well for 20, 30 or 40 years, as this thread has demonstrated.

Some of the many different opinions about counter-steering cannot be correct, and yet, we all ride.



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Old 09-06-2013, 01:50 PM   #1085
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Originally Posted by Klay View Post
People on bicycles who don't consciously understand countersteering are the accident victims I clean up after. You are on a path to kill people through the wanton promulgation of ignorance.

This ^^^^
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Old 09-06-2013, 01:52 PM   #1086
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
My point is they can realize that their motorcycle or bicycle is capavble of more extreme cornering than they thought without knowing what countersteering is.

It's called practice.
No. It's called practicing counter steering.
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Old 09-06-2013, 03:27 PM   #1087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerstu View Post
everything in this post i can agree with. my position is a rider needs to learn that aggressively pulling or pushing on the bars need not be accompanied by turning the head or leaning the upper body or hanging off or anything else. i think a lot of the discord on this thread is about the difference between countersteering, the only way to steer, period.(even riding with no hands on the bars the bike countersteers to lean first. ) and being real aggressive with it. way too many don't understand the agressive part.

You can get the front to countersteer lightly no-handed through using gyroscopic forces. If you tweak the bike over to the left with your hips, the front wheel will steer to the right a little, which rides the wheels out from underneath the center of mass of you and the bike and leans the bike to the left.

It's still countersteering. Much more effective to push left on the left bar to get the bike to lean left. Gyroscopic forces are much smaller than when you push on the handlebar.

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Old 09-06-2013, 03:29 PM   #1088
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I keep glancing at this thread when I know I shouldn't, but it keeps drawing me back in! Many claim CS is natural and we're trying/forcing riders to over-think it. Personally, I don't feel active, intentional use of CS is natural at all. Some stumble upon it, like I did, but didn't make it really active to the point I decided when and how much to use. Others never have a clue about it, unless given training.

My opinion on CS is based on using it and finding out what works. Then practice and coordination of visual control with CS and I found the twisties much easier and quicker. Yes, look to the exit is KEY to getting you there, and your body does follow. But not enough for all instances. There are times, like quick/accurate motions (swerve, curve-line adjustment, lean angle adjustment) that are best done with active CS.

My opinion is also based on 20+ years of MSF BRC and ERC teaching, over 3,500 students, from total newbies to so-called "experienced" riders. Of that group, very few had any knowledge of CS. But all that tried it enough to "feel" responded positively to it. So in my opinion CS is not natural, and not something a large numbers of riders know how to actively use. What we talk about online, or claim "works for everyone" has to be taken with a block of salt. Being involved directly in rider training for 20 years has slanted my opinion for sure.
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Old 09-06-2013, 03:29 PM   #1089
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
No, they were unable to make a corner because they were going faster than their ability could handle.
Finally, a decent point!

All you guys who've been riding and racing saying "just do it, you don't have to know what you're doing", I think it's a bogus point. Practice what? Just do what?

Turn your head and you will automatically steer?

I've been riding bikes since I was a kid. Lots of BMX bikes, lots of ten speeds, an XR50, XR100. At around 18 yrs old I helped my Dad get his old CB350 back on the road, then I stole his keys and made a copy of the ignition key. Took the bike up to the DMV and got my M classification.

I rode that thing all over, and finally after a few months Dad caught on, but ended up being OK with it. I was the only kid in highschool riding a motorcycle to school.

Anyhow, as I ventured out to the country and started riding at higher speeds, and sharper corners, I had a few scares. Almost running wide, a few Target Fixations etc. I hadn't really thought about how I turned the bike. I kinda shifted my weight toward the inside of the turn, pushed on the outside peg, twisted my shoulders and around I went. I rode like this for a long time, 2 years at least.

Talking one day with my Dad (He was an Engineer) he brings up counter steering. Of course I had been counter steering the whole time, but I wasn't aware of it. I had my own technique for making a bike go around a turn.

After that, the first time I went around a sharp corner, it was a sinch. Holy shit, I could just flick the bike over, and flick it right back up. snap snap. Just a subtle move of the bars, no need to do yoga on the seat anymore. It was a whole new ball game. Those turns I had almost run wide in before, soon I could take them at twice the speed. It changed everything, and now I had something to practice.

Knowing what to practice is important. I could have spent the last 20 years practicing pushing on the pegs to turn or winking to turn. You can hang off the seat, you can weight the pegs, and these do help the bike go around the turns, but counter steering is THE way we start a turn.
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Old 09-06-2013, 03:36 PM   #1090
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Keith Code knew what he was doing when he created the NO BS BIKE.

He installed fixed handlebars above the normal ones- hard mounted to the bike, not the steering head, and they have no effect on turning the bike.

This was to demonstrate that you can't LEAN a bike into a turn,and you can't do it with body position or turning your head.

Looking into a turn will have no effect on where the motorcycle goes, unless you turn the handlebars as well.

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php
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Old 09-06-2013, 03:40 PM   #1091
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Originally Posted by FTL900 View Post
This was to demonstrate that you can't LEAN a bike into a turn,and you can't do it with body position or turning your head.
See my last comment. You can guide a bike through turns with just body movement, no-handed, and I've done it through gentle curves for miles. But you're still countersteering...getting the steering head to move to initiate a lean.
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Old 09-06-2013, 03:58 PM   #1092
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That is true, because the reaction of CS is the bike initiating lean into the turn. The action of CS is when the bike is leaned into a balance condition off of vertical (didn't know a better way to say it) into a curve direction, which is/can be initiated by:
  • looking through the turn to the exit
  • leaning the upper body into the turn, this can be done with hands off the grips )be careful trying this)
  • pressing down on one footpeg more than the other (try it)
  • pressing a knee hard into the side of the fuel tank (try it)
  • pressing more on one handgrip than the other in the direction of the turn
  • pulling on one hangrip more than the other opposite the turn direction (the opposite action of pressing)
  • some combinations of the above actions
If none of this worked, how do some riders go record distances with no hands on the grips? But active use of CS is very beneficial to know and use. Active CS is best done at the handgrips. Plus how can you argue a known cycle expert like Keith Code? The other forms of CS, looking, body lean, footpeg pressure, knee/body english are more passive forms of CS, but still a form of CS. Reg Pridmore, another renowned cycle training expert puts less emphasis on handgrip induced CS and more on body english CS. Part of that rationale i think is to maintain a lighter grip/feel ay your hands and arms, less tense. Still, I feel and agree with Keith Code, that active use of CS really improves a rider's ability.
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Old 09-06-2013, 07:31 PM   #1093
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btao View Post
because he doesn't countersteer.
Uh oh.

Just wait for people to jump in and explain that he must counter steer to make a turn.

If we can just distinguish between the two meanings: the act of push steering (consciously counter steering by the rider as meant in the quote), and the bike counter steering to make/change a turn because that is how physics works, then we can eliminate 80% of the arguments and misunderstandings in this thread.

I think btao means here that the rider does not push the handlebar in the intended direction of travel, because he leans his body instead.
The BIKE of course counter steers momentarily or it wouldn't make a turn.
Amiright? Amiright?
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:34 PM   #1094
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The BIKE of course counter steers momentarily or it wouldn't make a turn.
Amiright? Amiright?

Yep, it has to.
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Old 09-08-2013, 09:20 AM   #1095
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+1. Wether the rider does it intentionally, or by other actions, the bike DOES Countersteer. Has to.

Out of curiousity, I did this once on a road I am very familiar with; big sweeping turn, very easy to go through with no perceptable CS input needed, about mid-turn I "steered" the handlebar into the turn direction like you would driving a car if you wanted to make the turn tighter. I made it an intentional, direct input.

Holy Crap! I was quickly in the LEFT lane of this two lane road.

So in midturn, after the bike's steering geometry had stabilized to maintain a constant arc through the turn, a steering input caused the bike to do opposite what a car would do. To me that was pretty clear that in the hands of a rider not knowing what makes a bike handle a curve, things can go QUICKLY wrong.
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