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Old 07-09-2014, 02:40 PM   #1291
scfrank
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Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
Actually it's exactly the same. You don't sense the handlebars steering into the turn at speed, but they do.
The why do we see racers coming out of a turn with the front wheel pointing to the outside of the turn?
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Old 07-09-2014, 02:42 PM   #1292
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Originally Posted by scfrank View Post
The why do we see racers coming out of a turn with the front wheel pointing to the outside of the turn?
Often, they're sliding around the corner. The front wheel is still pointed toward the turn, the back end is just coming around a bit.
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Old 07-09-2014, 03:26 PM   #1293
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Originally Posted by i_4ce View Post
Good thing you tried it at 45mph. Had you been going 39 then counter steering wouldn't have work as the effect only starts working at 39.9 mph.
Heres an update: It works heading north as well as south. 39.9 feels ok but holding it there sucks
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Old 07-09-2014, 04:36 PM   #1294
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Originally Posted by scfrank View Post
The why do we see racers coming out of a turn with the front wheel pointing to the outside of the turn?
Jim has it right, the bar comes back at you once you have it leaned, that is the self correction effect on the steering head geometry.
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Old 07-09-2014, 10:56 PM   #1295
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Originally Posted by Jamesx2 View Post
Honestly I dont know. Was I counter steering and didnt realize it? Was I pushing left to go right like a slow speed turn?. This explaines why in my first few weeks of riding it always felt like I couldnt get out of left turns and get the bike back to verticle and felt like i was going to slide off the seat .
What ever it was I dont want to be back in that place. Rideing is so much more enjoyable now

You know, I spent some time thinking of ways to kill this thread. It's so full of really rotten information (Admittedly, there is some really solid information here as well!) that I just wanted it to become so toxic that it died. The bad just seemed to outweigh the good by such a huge percentage....

Then you post.. .... Somebody got it! At least one person actually got on their bike, tried it and had that moment of brilliance when they discover that it is utterly simple and works exactly as described.


Eh, one down.....
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:29 AM   #1296
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Originally Posted by FlySniper View Post
You know, I spent some time thinking of ways to kill this thread. It's so full of really rotten information (Admittedly, there is some really solid information here as well!) that I just wanted it to become so toxic that it died. The bad just seemed to outweigh the good by such a huge percentage....

Then you post.. .... Somebody got it! At least one person actually got on their bike, tried it and had that moment of brilliance when they discover that it is utterly simple and works exactly as described.


Eh, one down.....
Thanks!!!

Now im looking for the route to and from work that has the most turns because leaning more into the turn then ever before is so much fun. I was missing out on so much
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:28 PM   #1297
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We've created the perpetual motion machines, known as the countersteering discussion thread.

CS "initiates" or "adjusts" the lean, once leaned into the turn the front tire turns in onto the intended curve radius.

To lean more, or less, CS increases lean, steering decreases it.
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Old 03-16-2015, 10:10 AM   #1298
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Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post
We've created the perpetual motion machines, known as the countersteering discussion thread.

CS "initiates" or "adjusts" the lean, once leaned into the turn the front tire turns in onto the intended curve radius.

To lean more, or less, CS increases lean, steering decreases it.
FWIW, our perpetual machine seems to be running out of juice. In an effort to revive and old thread / beat a dead horse - I offer the following post recently seen in the Killboy Failure Dragon Fest:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROAD DAMAGE View Post
Alright, against my better judgement I'm going to wade into the discussion with my $00.02.

Not all 2 wheeled vehicles counter steer ALL THE TIME. There, I've said it! Bikes and bicycles have a speed at which they transition from "steering", to "counter steering". It's my understanding that it is a complex function of many variables such as wheel diameter, speed, steering rake, etc.

So when you are rolling your bike around the driveway or putttting around in first gear doing slow speed maneuvers through a bunch of orange cones, you will "turn to the right, to go right" or "turn to the left, to go left". You DO NOT counter steer when you are going slow. AGREED? Trials riders DON'T counter steer when competing ........ they steer. Road racers don't steer when they are competing ........ they counter steer.

I actually read where some fellow calculated it for his particular motorcycle, and determined that his bike ceased steering and began counter steering at 27.4 mph.

Makes sense to me when you think about it. Go out and take a familiar turn at 20 miles an hour ......... then do it at 40. You'll steer through it at 20, and you'll counter steer through it at 40mph. Somewhere between those speeds, is the point at which it changes. (for most bikes)

When someone says that they've intuitively counter steered for years, yet didn't realize or understand exactly what they were doing, I think they should feel enlightened. But did most of you realize that you were actually differentiating between steering and counter steering speeds INTUITIVELY! Any kid that ever learned to ride a bike just figured it out automatically ........ probably with the help of a few band-aids!

So ................... taking this a step further, it stands to reason that there is OCCASIONALLY something to the old excuse, "It just wouldn't turn". I've had it happen to me a couple of times over the years ...... while riding slowly. It's the only way I can explain the "heavy handlebar" feeling that suddenly goes away when you goose the throttle and are now suddenly rolling 3 mph faster.

So Blk Betty, I really appreciated your open attitude about how you had been counter steering for years, and just didn't realize it. So take the Glide out now and experiment with the new information. It's amazing at how deliberate steering input (pushing and pulling on the bars) is so different and precise.

Ride safely out there amigos!
RD
. . . and my response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedl View Post
OK, I'll try to explain:

Production motorcycles do not counter-steer. Anytime a motorcycle is moving forward, the motorcycle will move in the direction that the front wheel is turned. For any vehicle to turn, the contact patches have to move in the direction of the desired turn. Moving the contact patches in the direction of the turn means steering in the direction of the turn. This fact doesn't depend on the number of wheels or the speed of travel - (it does however depend on the direction of travel) - To turn to the right while moving forward, we steer the wheel(s) such that forward movement moves the contact patches to the right.

The term "counter-steering" does not describe how a bike / moto turns. "Counter-steering" describes how to make the bike or moto LEAN in the appropriate direction for a desired turn. While moving forward (while riding, balancing on the contact patches), we turn the handlebars to the left (counter-steer) to get the moto to lean / fall to the right so that we can then steer to the right and turn to the right. The purpose of counter-steering is to move the contact patches to the outside of the desired turn - so that the bike will start to lean (fall) to the inside of the turn. "Out-tracking" is an often-cited term that may make more sense to some people than "Counter-steering" does. But both terms describe the same technique used to manage the bike's lean direction and angle.

Note: The degree to which we steer or counter-steer depends on lot's of things (speed, lean angle, tire profile, camber thrust, steering geometry, slip angles front and back, rider position, etc, etc). The effort that we feel at the handlebar while steering or counter-steering also depends on lot's of things (speed, moments of inertia, gyroscopic effects. steering geometry, tire profiles, tire grip, rider position, etc, etc).

When we first learned to ride a bike, the thing that made that challenging was having to learn how to control the balance of the bike. As the bike fell to the left we steered to the left to stop the fall - but then we found ourselves moving to the left as well - likely into a tree or some other immovable object. In order to go straight for any distance, we had to learn how to balance - and that meant learning how to manage bike balance versus bike turning. This is where "counter-steering" comes into the equation.

Before you even tried to ride, you may have noticed that the bike moved in the direction that the front wheel was steered. But what you had to learn later was that the bike balanced / fell away from the direction that bike was steered. Learning how to balance a bike (while moving in some direction) is one thing. Learning to turn the bike (with precision) was a different animal.

For a motorcycle to turn (while staying in balance, i.e. not falling over), the moto must be leaned into the turn. If a moto is leaned but the handlebars are kept from turning, the moto will fall over. If a moto is leaned and the handlebars are turned in the same direction of the lean, then we can quickly find the point where the centrifugal forces (outward forces, that make the bike want to "stand up" / fall to the outside) and centripetal forces (inward forces, that make the bike want to "fall in" / fall to the inside) balance - and that ladies and gentlemen will bring us to a balanced and controlled turn. In order to stop the turn, we over-steer (steer more deeply than steady-state would dictate) and the moto will "stand-up" / reduce lean allowing us to reduce our steering and let the bike go more or less straight. If we need to turn move sharply, we need first to increase the lean angle (so counter-steer / out-track the front contact patches) and as the bike starts to lean-in more deeply we can then again steer into the turn to find the new balance point.

Why simple physics continues to be a point of contention for so many speaks volumes about our education system. And frankly it scares me shite-less to think that anyone could consider themselves a competent motorcyclist without knowing this stuff already. There is no shame in being ignorant of the physics involved for those not educated in the technical discipline of physics.

Cheers,

Jedl screwed with this post 03-16-2015 at 11:01 AM
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Old 03-16-2015, 10:35 AM   #1299
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Given that the term "countersteering" is about controlling the lean of the bike and not about steering per se, has anyone come up with any term(s) better suited to describe the technique we all love to argue about?

I've heard of "Out-Tracking" for "Countersteer" & "In-Tracking" for "Oversteer". But even those terms seem weak given the difficulty some have to grasp the concept. "Understeer" vs "Oversteer" is probably more descriptive of what we actually do to manage lean angle while we are already in a lean - but the terms don't fit well for lean initiation. Maybe it would be clearest to use "Out-Tracking" when talking about lean initiation and "Understeer" / "Oversteer" when talking about managing the current lean angle?

In real life these are not different things - so it would be great to have consistent language - but might that be too much for those just coming to grips with the physics?

What do y'all think? Do we have some common language that we can agree on?

Cheers,
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Old 03-16-2015, 08:23 PM   #1300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedl View Post
Given that the term "countersteering" is about controlling the lean of the bike and not about steering per se, has anyone come up with any term(s) better suited to describe the technique we all love to argue about?

I've heard of "Out-Tracking" for "Countersteer" & "In-Tracking" for "Oversteer". But even those terms seem weak given the difficulty some have to grasp the concept. "Understeer" vs "Oversteer" is probably more descriptive of what we actually do to manage lean angle while we are already in a lean - but the terms don't fit well for lean initiation. Maybe it would be clearest to use "Out-Tracking" when talking about lean initiation and "Understeer" / "Oversteer" when talking about managing the current lean angle?

In real life these are not different things - so it would be great to have consistent language - but might that be too much for those just coming to grips with the physics?

What do y'all think? Do we have some common language that we can agree on?

Cheers,
Any time one controls the direction of his motorcycle, he is *steering*. How he does that may change with the many variables you describe, but counter-steering, *is* steering, just not the totality of steering, but one of many types/forms/methods and it is a much better term to describe how to do it than "out tracking" which sounds like a load of crap to tell you the truth. Want to steer the bike right when at speed, as in moving faster than parking lot speeds, you "push" or "pull" if you like, the bars in the opposite direction, or "counter" to the way you want to go. Easy peasy description of how to do it, no need to bring "physics" into it at all, just as it's not necessary to bring in the laws of thermodynamics to describing how a bike starts. I doubt Valentino Rossi et al gives 2 shits about the physics of steering a bike to the extent you feel is absolutely necessary by even the most casual rider, i.e."and frankly it scares me shite-less to think that anyone could consider themselves a competent motorcyclist without knowing this stuff already."

That statement's pompous, arrogance is only exceeded by your next beauty line, " There is no shame in being ignorant of the physics involved for those not educated in the technical discipline of physics." lol, what a snobby butthole you sound like, making statements like that. Maybe you need to understand how to communicate your ideas without bringing into questioning others' grasp on concepts as though yours is 100% correct. Trust me, your explanation still is not all encompassing re methods and effects. That's the problem with the "expert trap" you've built for yourself, there is no definitive answer.

If anybody should feel ashamed here, it's you with your condescension. Maybe you should steer clear of interactions with humans...use out tracking techniques if you like, until you learn to speak to them more respectfully.
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Old 03-16-2015, 09:30 PM   #1301
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No, it's a pretty definitive answer. Physics is just descriptions of what happens, man. Out-tracking is just a description of what happens. Honestly, a more all encompassing description, too. Out-tracking will occur whether you initiate the turn with the bars or just by shifting your weight, on one wheel or forty (assuming they're all in line, ie a single track vehicle). Even if you somehow manage to avoid the imperceptible turn to the left before you go right, just putting the center of gravity on the inside of the desired turn direction is out-tracking.

I agree with you that it's not necessary to know this stuff to ride, but you should know it if you want to argue about it.

Oh, and I'd bet you dollars to donuts that Rossi knows this stuff inside and out. Even if he can't describe the physics of it, he knows damn well exactly what happens with his machine on any given input.
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Old 03-17-2015, 08:25 PM   #1302
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A little video I made about riding position in general, thought it would be a good refresher for all of us as riding season is opening back up in some parts of the world....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocGtY0xMRHI
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Old 03-21-2015, 11:43 AM   #1303
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NOT this again
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Old 03-21-2015, 11:56 AM   #1304
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NOT this again
it keeps them happy

and it gives me an opportunity to talk about "Catweasel's theory of active vs passive counter-steering"

Which is very easy - every bike counter-steers naturally/passively above a certain speed - it's a physics thing - like gravity and beer and the rider (newb or not) can cheerfully go his, or her, entire riding life without having to worry about it...resistance is, as they say, futile.

However, if you want to take your riding to the next level - add a certain snap to your riding, go around that bend a wee bit faster, improve your track times, arguably improve your road safety then learning to actively counter-steer - ie consciously pushing on one bar or the other and feeling how the bike responds is a reasonable idea.

But again - you never ever have to "actively" counter-steer and there are many many other things that the average/typical rider can do to improve his/her road safety & performance.
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Old 03-21-2015, 08:27 PM   #1305
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Does counter steering work if I put a car tire on the back?
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