ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Old's Cool > Airheads
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-25-2013, 09:03 PM   #1
Plaka OP
Brevis illi vita est
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Oddometer: 4,581
pre-oiler

Has anyone ever set up an electric or manual (or other?) pre-oiler on an airhead?
Plaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013, 11:04 PM   #2
Rob Farmer
Beastly Adventurer
 
Rob Farmer's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Loughborough, Leicestershire. England
Oddometer: 5,167
Why would you?
Rob Farmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013, 11:10 PM   #3
Plaka OP
Brevis illi vita est
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Oddometer: 4,581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Farmer View Post
Why would you?
Why would I what? Ask? 'cause I've been thinking of it w/o a satisfactory solution.
Plaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013, 11:10 PM   #4
Clay Spinner
Woodfire or Bust
 
Clay Spinner's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: Nova Scotia
Oddometer: 584
He's from north america?
Clay Spinner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013, 11:10 PM   #5
Kai Ju
Beastly Adventurer
 
Kai Ju's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: So Cal
Oddometer: 1,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Farmer View Post
Why would you?
I have to go with Rob on this. Proper assembly with assembly lube/oil on all necessary parts should preclude the need for that. If you really were concerned about starting a completely dry engine, such as a bare block rebuild, you could crank the engine over with the plugs removed until the oil light goes out.
Kai Ju is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013, 11:13 PM   #6
Plaka OP
Brevis illi vita est
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Oddometer: 4,581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay Spinner View Post
He's from north america?
Having owned a pair of British vehicles I can understand the concern that the sooner oil starts circulating, the sooner it starts leaking...
Plaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013, 11:36 PM   #7
Plaka OP
Brevis illi vita est
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Oddometer: 4,581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Ju View Post
I have to go with Rob on this. Proper assembly with assembly lube/oil on all necessary parts should preclude the need for that. If you really were concerned about starting a completely dry engine, such as a bare block rebuild, you could crank the engine over with the plugs removed until the oil light goes out.
My pressure gauge is telling me the engine will fire before the pressure comes up. There is indeed oil in the bearings and whatnot, but until the pressure comes up there is no flow, thus poor lubrication. This is why engines have much of their wear on start up. Engines can be run a huge number of hours if they are started less and run longer once running. Or you can reduce startup wear with a pre-oiler. Commercial ones (electric) are available.

Assembly lube has a number of special ingredients to establish a thicker film as well as special high pressure lubricants. I have been using one with moly and possibly graphite, as well as some soaps.

I do not have the electrical power to use the motor itself as a pre-oiler, nor do I want the wear on an old starter. Increasing the electrical power and fitting a better starter is beyond my budget. The once every 15 years use of the engine in this matter, following major work, is trivial. Doing so several times a day, and more importantly, at night, is unacceptable.

--------------------------


While I am more than aware I run roughshod over other peoples threads, and thus have zero bitching rights, denying a problem exists is not the same thing as proposing a solution (tho' often far easier). I asked if anyone had done it or had experience with it. I am also aware that someone that has neither of these might have some interesting ideas on how such a thing might be done, irrespective of the desirability of doing it. Such contributions would be very welcome.

For a good discussion on the purpose and use of these devices I suggest a google search on the subject. Personally I am unconcerned with the theory or principle so much as the application itself.

Thank you so much.


Plaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 12:05 AM   #8
Rob Farmer
Beastly Adventurer
 
Rob Farmer's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Loughborough, Leicestershire. England
Oddometer: 5,167
Our airheads are at least 16 years old and seem to have done well enough without pre oilers. Take your pressure gauge off, you wont worry about it then.
Rob Farmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 12:10 AM   #9
Rob Farmer
Beastly Adventurer
 
Rob Farmer's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Loughborough, Leicestershire. England
Oddometer: 5,167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaka View Post
Having owned a pair of British vehicles I can understand the concern that the sooner oil starts circulating, the sooner it starts leaking...
Having to constantly top the oil up means the engines always running fresh oil and the leaked oil provides an anti corrosion barrier. Pure genious.
Rob Farmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 12:46 AM   #10
motu
Loose Pre Unit
 
motu's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: New Zealand
Oddometer: 4,368
You could use a thinner oil on the W side - a 5-50 say, that will get oil to your bearings much quicker than a 20-50. I knew a guy who built a turbo Valiant Charger back when turbos were used on trucks not cars, and well before turbo timers. He had a 1 litre or so cannister that pressurised, and when the engine stopped it emptied itself through the turbo oil feed cooling the bearings. You need it from a cold start, so you have to shut it with a tap when stopped, open to start.
motu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 12:54 AM   #11
Plaka OP
Brevis illi vita est
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Oddometer: 4,581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Farmer View Post
Having to constantly top the oil up means the engines always running fresh oil and the leaked oil provides an anti corrosion barrier. Pure genious.
I got a nifty Land Rover belt buckle for free for sending in the sealing bands from three 55 gallon drums of 90 wt..

Like 9 places to fill...fresh oil every week.


But I've been doing this with brake fluid on my Toyota for years.
Plaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 01:38 AM   #12
Plaka OP
Brevis illi vita est
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Oddometer: 4,581
Quote:
Originally Posted by motu View Post
You could use a thinner oil on the W side - a 5-50 say, that will get oil to your bearings much quicker than a 20-50. I knew a guy who built a turbo Valiant Charger back when turbos were used on trucks not cars, and well before turbo timers. He had a 1 litre or so cannister that pressurised, and when the engine stopped it emptied itself through the turbo oil feed cooling the bearings. You need it from a cold start, so you have to shut it with a tap when stopped, open to start.



Nope. Won't hold pressure at idle. Tried 10-40 for my post build flushing oil. Was dropping under 20 PSI @ 1000RPM and getting flickering oil light at under 200F (max) . OId oil pump isn't helping, but 20-50 does fine to over 260F (max).

I saw some of those pressure canister setups. Couple hundred $$, have to be drained at change time, can leak, lots of bits to plumb and break, like the solenoid. Some of them looked like cheap snake oil. Others not so. I used to use Water Wells (tm?). It's a big metal tank on wheels. You fill it with water from a faucet connection. An air filled bladder inside compresses and transfers the faucet pressure to the tank. Then you roll it around an office building watering all the plants. The pressure tank rigs take and inject oil at the sender location. They have limited capacity, not the best for post shutdown lube of a turbo bearing unless dedicated, or for post shutdown cooling.

One article on flat aircraft engines (which is what we have minus 4 cylinders) said the cam and lifters benefit the most. They are the "driest" and under full load from the moment the cam contacts the lifter. Cam over crank designs have their own oil galley so get oil quickly. The /2 used slingers? Cam under crank designs get oil from bleed off the crank bearings. Our engines get crank bleed and there is also an overhead drip gallery---'cept the crank is in the way. The rocker covers are at the end of the line so oil down the pushrod tubes to lube the pushrod tips and the sides of the lifters, is late. The rockers, adjuster end of the pushrods, valve guides and valve tops are also under full pressure immediately. Piston rings aren't pressing hard until you develop running pressures. Ditto crank bearings, rod bearings, timing chain, etc. Not so beneficial there. Oil pump loads fast. Hydraulic cam chain tensioner is slack w/o oil pressure. So the initial timing from the cam nose isn't what it could be.

The aircraft systems are electric. One I looked at had an adapter at the oil filter (spin on I gather.) $3,000. Some systems involve adding oil galleries. I know this is done on industrial engines. Some very large engines, like the big diesels that run the emergency generators for hospitals, spend most of their time sitting. There is a whole start up routine. Like getting oil and fuel pressure up.

So this is one problem, where to get the oil from and where to inject it, and how much? Can you back pressure the oil pump and will it hold or Bleed your flow back into the sump?

I have seen some race bikes with monster oil coolers. The lines to the coolers don't come off the filter location. They seem to come from the back of the engine. Where?

The oil galley right off the oil pump terminates in a plug behind and below the oil pressure sensor. So that is one point of access. The sender, right around the corner, is another. These are both at the beginning of the run. Ideally you want to dump oil right on the cam. Uses least oil. But the overhead drips terminate behind the flywheel believe.

I'm thinking something extremely simple, like a hydraulic cylinder on a lever. (kickstart lever?) Couple of pumps and go. I've got a worn 12" x 1" Bimba air cylinder, double acting, stainless,250 PSI that I use... If it will take hot oil...
Plaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 01:40 AM   #13
Plaka OP
Brevis illi vita est
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Oddometer: 4,581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Farmer View Post
Our airheads are at least 16 years old and seem to have done well enough without pre oilers. Take your pressure gauge off, you wont worry about it then.
Do you have a TV?
Plaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 04:50 AM   #14
Stan_R80/7
Beastly Gnarly
 
Stan_R80/7's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: VA
Oddometer: 1,141
Install an igition disconnect switch to the coils

Put a switch to break the green wire energizing the coils so the engine can be cranked without spark. Once the oil pressure light goes out, flip the switch and begin starting the bike. Adding jumper wiring and not butchering the original wiring harness would be beneficial so the original wiring can be restored once this desire has faded. Good luck!
Stan_R80/7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 06:06 AM   #15
Plaka OP
Brevis illi vita est
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Oddometer: 4,581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan_R80/7 View Post
Put a switch to break the green wire energizing the coils so the engine can be cranked without spark. Once the oil pressure light goes out, flip the switch and begin starting the bike. Adding jumper wiring and not butchering the original wiring harness would be beneficial so the original wiring can be restored once this desire has faded. Good luck!
Have you been talking with Rob?
Plaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 01:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014