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Old 01-05-2013, 09:06 PM   #16
Kai Ju
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I have to agree with the rather a bit loose than too tight.
My transmission had a bunch of false neutrals which I contribute not just to the loose input shaft but also to the very snug output shaft. That scenario certainly invites different shaft speeds and I found that a slight blip of the throttle improved shift smoothness tremendously. Both up and down.
If I find the energy, I'ill try both methods just to satisfy my own curiosity......and everybody else's.
To address SS's concern about the play in the outer race of the bearings, I usually measure the depth while preloading the opposite side and then measure again with it released. This provides two different measurements and I split the difference.
Ditto with the cover, where I try to get more than one spot in the bore and then again average it out.
It's a pain but it's worked well for me over the years.

Now for something completely different. Not everybody has access to, or knows how to make, special tools.
How about a loaner program for some of the more difficult/rare/expensive ones.
I would think that somebody that feels confident enough to tackle a job themselves would also be considerate enough to treat the tools with the care they deserve.
No fees, just shipping cost to and fro.
Let me know what you guys think.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:45 AM   #17
supershaft
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Hopefully everyone understands that loose is better than TOO tight. I still think tight is better than loose. Yea, it can be a PITA getting there but . . . . They work fine as long as they aren't too loose. I personally think they work better tight.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:53 AM   #18
ME 109
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Got to watch those average measurements too, I found.
With a shim plate from Cycle Works, I was able to measure up to .003" difference across one bearing
I took a shite load of measurements everywhere, spun bearings in the shim plate and re-measured to be sure.

Also found significant difference between inner race and outer race, enough for me to disregard any measurement of inner races.
I could set the depth gauge to the outer race and not be able to slide the gauge to the inner race without encountering a step.

The cover plate pockets (measured at pocket) also gave variations of .002"

So, if you shoot for .002" end play, and use average measurements, one could quickly find oneself with no room to move.

Oh yeah, a little clearance is also lost when the cover plate is tightened up.


The concept of measuring for shims is simple.
Factoring in the 'individual' variables is the challenge.

My advice (as mentioned by 'real' airhead mechanics below) after servicing a total of (1) tranny is aim wide, go for .004" or .1mm.

.003" might be a reasonable margin of error with all things considered, including getting a shim stack to the exact .000"

I think yer having a lend of yesself if yer claim to have set end play at .002" or less on three shafts.

6:00pm here, and 42 farkin degrees C. There goes another thou"
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:53 AM   #19
DiabloADV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ME 109 View Post
I think solder will distort the cover more than the specified end play clearance. Which would give a larger shim stack than necessary.
Resulting in a tight fit.

Just my thoughts after dissecting the solder method.
'Course, I might be completely wrong.
The hot cover allows the solder to squash with no resistance to speak of.
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Old 01-06-2013, 01:02 AM   #20
DiabloADV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ME 109 View Post
I think solder will distort the cover more than the specified end play clearance. Which would give a larger shim stack than necessary.
Resulting in a tight fit.

Just my thoughts after dissecting the solder method.
'Course, I might be completely wrong.
The hot cover allows the solder to squash with no resistance to speak of.
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Old 01-06-2013, 01:22 AM   #21
Rob Farmer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Ju View Post
How about a loaner program for some of the more difficult/rare/expensive ones.
I tried that in the UK a few years ago and just ended up with a bunch of knackerd or dented kit and others just never made it home again. With the best will in the world, especially with inexperienced mechanics, kit gets dropped and knocked about. You will also find when lending stuff out it always takes a lot of chasing to get it back again.
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Old 01-06-2013, 03:19 AM   #22
ME 109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiabloADV View Post
The hot cover allows the solder to squash with no resistance to speak of.
I had wondered about the effect of a hot cover, and how all the fasteners would need to be done up pronto.
I guess the cover could be re-heated after the fasteners were tightened. Heating the cover will add an unknown amount/direction of distortion...

The pics I've seen of solder in position show six pieces to crush.
Being a reasonable distance from the crushing force (fasteners) there's bound to be resiudual of distortion.
That amount of distortion may well be calculable.

With repeated experience with multiple trannies, the solder method would become workable and reliable.

All imo, and ready for a flaming where and when required.
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:29 AM   #23
Beemerboff
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The factory book gives the clearance as 2 thou to the inner race, Haynes and Clymer give four thou, without stating where, but presumably at the outer.

The oilhead crowd had a bunch of dud, over preloaded rear drives, and had a field day devising methods of measurement for resetting them, without the factory tool.

A jig and dial gauge set up was devised which proved accurate.

Solder checked against the jig was 8 thou too tight, back to what started their problem in the first place.

Epoxy ribbon, tank sealant or whatever, proved to give an accurate reading, matching the jig.

So if we carry these results over to a box you should be aiming for around 12 thou clearance if you measure by crushing solder at the outer race, or 4 thou if you use epoxy at the same place.

The big C3 bearing in the final drive runs fine at either zero or 2 thou preload at the outer race, depending on the type of bearing on the other side, so I think that 2 thou clearance is a safety setting rather than the optimum figure.

I stripped a box where the output shaft was overloaded by around 15 thou due to someone crushing in oversized aftermarket gears without checking the shimming.

While it ran and changed fine this way for over 60,000 km (Mobil1 synth) it always felt hotter than the engine, and both bearings were eventually destroyed and turning on the shaft.

So it appears that even with a major sort of error in the set up you will still get a decent run before the box craps out - but the more preload you have the sooner that day will come.

The box will change better and last longer with synth oil too.
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:16 AM   #24
disston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Farmer View Post
I tried that in the UK a few years ago and just ended up with a bunch of knackerd or dented kit and others just never made it home again. With the best will in the world, especially with inexperienced mechanics, kit gets dropped and knocked about. You will also find when lending stuff out it always takes a lot of chasing to get it back again.
I'm afraid this is the way it would be here also. People intend to always be on time. When they are two mins late you should understand. When they are 5 mins late it was only two mins. People think that their intentions are what matters and the fact that they are late was a one time thing that you should understand. It is pretty much the same thing. People have no innate concept of time. People who don't own tools do not know what they cost. They do not have any respect for things they do not understand.

If you want to rebuild your own transmission then buy your own tools. The first transmission you rebuild will not be a money maker or a money saver. It may actually cost you more than it might cost if you had a pro rebuild it for you. Learning mechanics is a painful experience. You will make mistakes that cost you money. Transmissions can and do blow up. They break big time and are more expensive to repair the second time because the mechanic to be is learning.

Now about this solder thing. I like the idea and intend to try it the next time I put a transmission together. But I also have a beat up shim plate and I have some old parallels so I'm going to compare the two. Trouble is the transmission I have is not perfect but I can bang it through all the gears and I know where the downshifts are hiding and I rarely leave it in a neutral in between anything other than 1 & 2. All in all it's a pretty good Airhead trans. I've had worse.
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Old 01-06-2013, 10:30 AM   #25
a_bakla
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I've just tried solder, Works well.
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Old 01-06-2013, 11:19 AM   #26
mendoje
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Originally Posted by disston View Post
Now about this solder thing. I like the idea and intend to try it the next time I put a transmission together. But I also have a beat up shim plate and I have some old parallels so I'm going to compare the two.
Hi disston. If you're going to do a comparison test, could you also throw in some Plastiguage, and see how it holds up? http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=66

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Old 01-06-2013, 11:38 AM   #27
Kai Ju
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Originally Posted by mendoje View Post
Hi disston. If you're going to do a comparison test, could you also throw in some Plastiguage, and see how it holds up? http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=66

Jeff
Do they make Plastigauge thick enough for this application ? Never mind just answered my own question.

http://www.plastigaugeusa.com/pricelist.html

They do recommend tho that to check endfloat that a shim of a known thickness be inserted at the measured area.

__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________

Shaft end-float lends itself to direct measurement by PLASTIGAUGE.
Flatness and clearance in pipe-flanges and cylinder heads are readily checked and measured with standard PLASTIGAUGE.

It is recommended that the surfaces be separated by a ground spacing washer or shim of (typically) 0.002". PLASTIGAUGE is positioned in those regions where distortion is suspected and any variations of flatness will be shown, after the assembly is dismantled, by variations in the width of the compressed PLASTIGAUGE strip.

For large bearings, multiple measurements are recommended by inserting two or more gauges around the bearing.
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Old 01-06-2013, 01:41 PM   #28
supershaft
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I thought the factory spec was .002 to no play? Then there's the re-shim and new bearing specs? Something like that. I always just look them up but . . . .

I bet I could do it with solder. I have just never done it that way. The solder or your hand moving the cover .002"? Sure! Reminds me of fork alignment. If you had a magnetic V block you would see that just holding the dial gauge against the fork tubes moves them at least .002. How the cover goes on and is tapped makes all the difference. Then, of course, what it does after going through a few work cycles is another thing. The important thing to understand is that too tight is too tight and too loose is too loose.
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Old 01-06-2013, 03:42 PM   #29
DiabloADV
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Seems to me that Plastigauge is not a good idea with a spit-hot cover.

I went to a gearbox tech day. Everybody had a helluva hard time fitting covers even with all the tools on hand. My box was repeatedly too tight. I finally concluded that guys were just guessing in order to get it done and get out of there at the end of the day. I took my box home and did the solder trick and it worked out perfect on the first try.

Tips: use the smallest solder that will work. Get the hot cover on and tightened quickly. Then heat it again and run the box up and down the gears for a while. Pull the cover back off and measure. Subtract 2 or 3 thou and find the right shims.
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1970 R60/5

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Old 01-06-2013, 03:53 PM   #30
disston
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Originally Posted by DiabloADV View Post
Tips: use the smallest solder that will work. Get the hot cover on and tightened quickly. Then heat it again and run the box up and down the gears for a while. Pull the cover back off and measure. Subtract 2 or 3 thou and find the right shims.
That's the way I see it too.
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