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Old 01-06-2013, 07:44 PM   #31
Beemerboff
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The problem with depending on the heated cover to soften the solder is that low temp solders have only a melting point , that is, they turn to liquid at that temperature without softening. Try a bit on the end of the soldering bolt and see.

The harder solders which do soften a little before melting do so at a much higher temp than you will sensibly raise the cover too.

It is easy to check what effect crushing solder has if you have a shop press and measuring equipment.

The shaft, complete with both bearings, can be stood vertical in the press, supported on the outer race of the lower bearing, and the height measured between the outer races.

Solder of a known thickness can then be placed on top of the top race and the stack compressed with a suitable spacer until the solder is deformed, and the height of the shaft remeasured. to find out how much the shaft has shortened under the load

The spacer can be heated to sizzlle , if required.

It would be prudent to check the length at various degrees of solder deformation, as the reduction in stack height at , say , 10% deformation will probably not be the same if the solder is crushed by 30 %.

You can then replace the cover with solder in place and apply the appropriate correction factor depending on the degree of compaction of the solder.

Test were done on oilhead final drives and it was found that 500 lb pressure was required to deform three pieces of solder 30 % , and that translated to around 8 thou error in the preload setting.

However when a few dots of soft 'Kneed it " ,"Tank repair "or similar epoxy ribbon were used in place of the solder there was no measurable difference between the reading made using the correct measuring gear and the epoxy thickness.

So just quite why anyone would want crush down the stack with solder is beyond me, and I look forward to seeing the results of Disstons tests.
Maybe he can check two shafts with solder and one with epoxy for a true comparison relevant to airhead gearboxes.

The oilhead guys found that plastigauge or similar would not stand up to the heat required to fit the covers.
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:52 PM   #32
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.
The oilhead guys found that plastigauge or similar would not stand up to the heat required to fit the covers.

Ahhh, that's settles that. Thanks!
Jeff
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Old 01-06-2013, 08:06 PM   #33
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Now the solder stuff is getting interesting! The solder I use to measure stuff is not hard enough to be an issue.
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Old 01-06-2013, 08:40 PM   #34
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So...what would be the right material that will withstand the heat and crush easily?
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Old 01-06-2013, 09:11 PM   #35
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Now the solder stuff is getting interesting! The solder I use to measure stuff is not hard enough to be an issue.
I recently experimented with 1mm resin cored solder to see what sort of pressure was required to crush it.
I used an old bearing, and found that although the pressure required was not overly significant, multiplying it by 6 times would become an issue.

My shim stacks measured in the high .8's so 1mm solder would have been difficult to take a measure from.
2mm solder would have had to crush approx 1.1mm which is a fair bit, so a 1.5mm solder would have been the go. If they make 1.5mm.

Then a vernier with a dial gauge is needed to measure the solder, or a caliper able to measure in .001" grads.
I think the vernier option would be best to measure the relatively narrow imprint of a bearing.

Buy a shim plate and find new friends!
Imagine your popularity if you had a output flange removal tool as well.

I officially got older today so I'm wondering whether to get the Cycle Works flange removal tool, or a mitutoyo 0-50
depth gauge (so I can properly use my Cycle Works parallel bars) or a mitutoyo 0-25mm micrometer for measuring shims.
Don't believe what is written on the packet as a shim thickness! measure them all.

Hmmm, maybe I should just go for the usual boifday present of a new back tyre.
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Old 01-06-2013, 09:25 PM   #36
supershaft
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You know, I hadn't thought about how big some of the solder needs to be.

I have a BMW shim plate and a BMW flange puller. I have a Kukko bar puller and some Kukko bearing separators too. A bunch of Kukko blind bearing pullers too. I have friends!

Vernier is without a gauge. You know, like most micrometers. They are vernier micrometers.

supershaft screwed with this post 01-06-2013 at 09:34 PM
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Old 01-06-2013, 09:48 PM   #37
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Vernier is without a gauge. You know, like most micrometers. They are vernier micrometers.
Yer splittin' hairs man!
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Old 01-06-2013, 11:24 PM   #38
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Yer splittin' hairs man!
You may have to split hairs to get the proper clearance

I'll be getting my rear cover machined tomorrow, just waiting on bearings. Already picked up the new sleeve and washer at my local dealer on Saturday.


BTW, is there any value in replacing the detent lever roller with a bearing ?
I seem to heard something along those lines. I noticed that the stock roller does not fit the detents of the shift plate correctly. It's actually slightly too large and when I contacted my bearing supplier I found out that an MR158 bearing would have the proper OD of 15 mm while the roller measures 15.75 mm. Any thoughts ?

Kai Ju screwed with this post 01-06-2013 at 11:32 PM
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:56 AM   #39
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You may have to split hairs to get the proper clearance

I'll be getting my rear cover machined tomorrow, just waiting on bearings. Already picked up the new sleeve and washer at my local dealer on Saturday.


BTW, is there any value in replacing the detent lever roller with a bearing ?
I seem to heard something along those lines. I noticed that the stock roller does not fit the detents of the shift plate correctly. It's actually slightly too large and when I contacted my bearing supplier I found out that an MR158 bearing would have the proper OD of 15 mm while the roller measures 15.75 mm. Any thoughts ?
I was going to change the nylon roller for a bearing until SS mentioned 'feel' through (I assume) the shift lever.
I for one have become very accustomed to my shifting and did not want to change.
My old nylon roller also was larger than the cam radius. Actually at 13 years old it was the same diameter as the new one.
Is there a reason for the roller not being a perfect fit at the bottom of the cam?

How does a machine shop machine an alloy cover........that opens up yet more cans of worms.

As for using glass to do it......I bet the glass is out more than .002" and as for the bench the glass is sitting on...
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:41 PM   #40
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Lots of people put K bike solid metal rollers in them. I don't like how it feels on my foot. It makes me think I am on a K bike and if you are really hauling ass in the curves thinking you are on a K bike could be dangerous!
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:11 PM   #41
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Setting up old Brit Iron boxes, and some of the later unit construction ones too, was done by trial and error - the shims were increased a couple of a thou at a time and the end cover bolted down, until you could feel some resistance when turning the shafts.

You then went back to the previous shim and that was it. A simpler bearing set up than airhead boxes made this possible.

But, if you had a surplus cover, instead of machining the outside flat if you opened out the bearing recesses slightly until they were an easy slip fit over the bearings you could do the same on a airhead box, one shaft at a time.

You would have to adjust the shim stack to suit the difference between the pocket depths on the trial and the good cover, of course, but that would be the only measurement required, so the possibility of error is greatly reduced.

Anyone see why this system wouldn't work on a airhead box.?
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:36 PM   #42
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That idea has merit except you can't turn the layshaft since it doesn't stick out on either end. That means you'd have to rely on the feel of turning the input shaft to check the layshaft drag/clearance.
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Old 01-08-2013, 02:38 AM   #43
Beemerboff
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Yes, but if you did the layshaft without any shims in the other two shafts you would get a bit feel for the differerce as the bearing tightened up.

You could also drill a hole or two in the cover at the layshaft bearing boss so that you could prod something down, and actually feel when the shim stack, etc, was compressed solid.

There is a cheap cover on Ebay right now so I should probably try it myself!
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Old 01-08-2013, 09:48 AM   #44
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So...what would be the right material that will withstand the heat and crush easily?
Bump...any ideas?
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Old 01-08-2013, 09:56 AM   #45
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Bump...any ideas?
My thoughts was for a material like a very porous aluminium sheet. Very easy to crush, and would stay at the crushed size.
I don't think there is anything like it tho'
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