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Old 05-24-2013, 07:57 AM   #226
Cortez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandito2 View Post
I disagree with that notion. At some speed and corresponding engine RPM, (likely around 55 MPH) the pulley face is at its full limit and the drive belt can go no further up the pulley. (since there is no more pulley face it could go up) Any more speed comes only from higher engine RPMs. At the full limit of the variator, no matter what you are using in the variator whether they be sliders or rollers, the given engine RPM will give the same speed for both methods.
Sorry but you're wrong.
That's the whole idea behind Dr Pulley sliders.

I've had 3 sets and they do exactly what you say can't be done.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:12 AM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
Sorry but you're wrong.
That's the whole idea behind Dr Pulley sliders.
I've had 3 sets and they do exactly what you say can't be done.
After some research I find:
Mostly the idea behind the Dr Pulley sliders is quicker acceleration. They are well known for this apparently.
Other benefits of sliders are that they wear more evenly which is inherent in their design having a large "flat spot"
already. And because of less wear, the variator has a longer life than stock rollers of being able to reach the peak
ratio.

From their data, they claim something like only a 4% increase in top speed over stock rollers. However, if true,
then that would mean that IF the belt is indeed being forced further up the driven pulley face, then the belt is also
concurrently being pulled further down into the pulley at the clutch end. If the belt has already bottomed out at
the clutch end then there is NO WAY that the belt could go higher in the driven face. Unless the belt stretches
enough to allow that. And I firmly believe that is not happening. Even if it does take every bit of slack out of the
belt so it allows no up or down flapping movement to eke out every micro millimeter of climb further up the driven
pulley face, then the belt would be forced under more than normal tension and would make for more heat and
wear on the belt. That would wear out the belt faster than the stock if you made it a practice to ride WFO alot.

In summary, I'll concede they may be good for quicker than stock acceleration. But the claim for higher top
speed I still find of dubious merit.
......... Unless of course you can enlighten and rationally explain to convince otherwise.
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Old 05-24-2013, 11:47 AM   #228
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Lets see, who to believe, you who have never tried them or my lying eyes reading the tachometer

My friend has a scoot with a tach. I rode it before and after the Dr pully sliders change so I only have real world experience to report.
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Old 05-24-2013, 05:32 PM   #229
bandito2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hexnut View Post
Lets see, who to believe, you who have never tried them or my lying eyes reading the tachometer

My friend has a scoot with a tach. I rode it before and after the Dr pully sliders change so I only have real world experience to report.

Very well then. I see now how that is possible. (sort of) Indeed I should try them myself before giving a final opinion. Understand guys, to me it sounded too good to be true and defied reason as I knew it. But I am open minded enough to try them. And if they do actually work as claimed, then that will work even better for my Reflex streamliner/fuel economy project. That is, if they have them available for the Honda Reflex in various weights. A quick cursory look did not show them; partially because the website would not show pictures of all the different slider types and vehicles they will work on. I'll check into the variators too to see what they offer that might work for my needs.

hexnut, your statements about those who question a thing, but have not yet tried it and having real world experience ring so true as I am reminded of experiences in explaining to naysayers the virtues of using a car tire on the rear of the Reflex scooter. Touche.
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Old 05-24-2013, 06:14 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gore-tx View Post
I was looking at a Reflex too for a while but thought the wheels were on the small side. Plus, Reflex owners think they command a premium price over other scooters and it's hard to find a good one cheap.

The Forza 300 has a 14" on the front and a 13" on the back which I think will work better. It has also has a bigger and more powerful engine while being better on gas mileage than a Reflex.

The Forza is made in Thailand so it shouldn't be to expensive. I am hoping Honda keeps the price below $5,500.
powersports.honda.com gives the base MSRP for the 2014 Forza as $5599 and $6099 with ABS. A thing to note about these prices are that they are only $50 more than the MSRP prices for the then 2007 Honda Reflex. If true, then these would seem to be in retrospect, more reasonable if you could call it that, than the 7 year older, smaller, less capable Reflex prices. Just trying to put some perspective to pricing.

I'll still hold off from buying a new one for about a year if I end up liking it. But when they hit the showrooms, I'll certainly give one a test ride. One of the things that concerns me is the seating; I'm kind of partial to a more "feet forward" sitting position.
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Old 05-24-2013, 07:06 PM   #231
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I have a Bug Ruckus face 'b' and Dr. Pullry 19g. sliders in my Reflex.Believe me, there is a big difference. The reflex I ride most of the time runs 60-62 mph at 6000rpm. Acceleration is better than stock.
My other reflex ( same setup ) runs a few rpms more, and has faster acceleration. Both run about 6500rpms at 70 mph.
I've tried the K-mod before, too, and there is no way they are the same above a certain speed.
Bandito, you're welcome to ride both of mine if you are ever down south-central Ohio way.

Got to go check out your streamliner thread.

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Old 05-24-2013, 09:04 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bikeridermark View Post
I have a Bug Ruckus face 'b' and Dr. Pullry 19g. sliders in my Reflex. Believe me, they make a bigger difference than 4%. The reflex I ride most of the time runs 60-62 mph at 6000rpm. Acceleration is better than stock.
My other reflex ( same setup ) runs a few rpms more, and has faster acceleration. Both run about 6500rpms at 70 mph.
I've tried the K-mod before, too, and there is no way they are the same above a certain speed.
Bandito, you're welcome to ride both of mine if you are ever down south-central Ohio way.

Got to go check out your streamliner thread.
I'll be in Mansfield OH. July 19, 20 & 21 camping at the Mid-Ohio Race Course where the AMA Vintage Motorcycle Days event will be going on. I plan on having my Reflex with the Vetter fairing there for the fuel challenge and on display with the rest of the streamliners. After that, I've got nothing planned until early August. I could get down that way then or possibly earlier than the AMA event if I get done with the fairing early enough. Yeah, we could swap test rides and you could experience a Reflex with a car tire on the rear and a Silverwing rear tire up front. It would be interesting.

It would be nice if Honda would show up at Mid-Ohio with the Forza available for test rides. Took a test ride on a Kymco 300 something or other last year. It gave me leg cramps for a while.... I like to stretch out a bit but couldn't. Rode around with the group with my feet dangling out til the cramps quit. It looked dorky doing that. But it certainly had better acceleration than my 250 Reflex which kind of made it a fun ride after all.
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Old 05-25-2013, 04:12 AM   #233
Cortez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandito2 View Post
After some research I find:
Mostly the idea behind the Dr Pulley sliders is quicker acceleration. They are well known for this apparently.
Other benefits of sliders are that they wear more evenly which is inherent in their design having a large "flat spot"
already. And because of less wear, the variator has a longer life than stock rollers of being able to reach the peak
ratio.

From their data, they claim something like only a 4% increase in top speed over stock rollers. However, if true,
then that would mean that IF the belt is indeed being forced further up the driven pulley face, then the belt is also
concurrently being pulled further down into the pulley at the clutch end. If the belt has already bottomed out at
the clutch end then there is NO WAY that the belt could go higher in the driven face. Unless the belt stretches
enough to allow that. And I firmly believe that is not happening. Even if it does take every bit of slack out of the
belt so it allows no up or down flapping movement to eke out every micro millimeter of climb further up the driven
pulley face, then the belt would be forced under more than normal tension and would make for more heat and
wear on the belt. That would wear out the belt faster than the stock if you made it a practice to ride WFO alot.

In summary, I'll concede they may be good for quicker than stock acceleration. But the claim for higher top
speed I still find of dubious merit.
......... Unless of course you can enlighten and rationally explain to convince otherwise.
Higher top speed was never mentioned by me or anyone else, only lower
revs at those speeds. You could probably make some sort of combination
in the CVT to gain top speed too, but that's not the idea.

Going about 20% lighter with sliders vs stock rollers = about same revs
at about same top speed. Benefit of having this setup is a lot more
acceleration.

The most common setup people do is use 10% lighter then stock, which
bumps up the acceleration by a lot, but also lowers the cruising revs. That's
what I did on my Downtown (went from 15.5 to 14gr).

My WOT revs jumped from 5500 to 6500 resulting in 2 seconds less to
62 mph (11 to 9 seconds).

However, my cruising revs were lowered by 500.
I had 5500 at 60mph, before I had 6000.

It was lower by 500 revs all the way up to top speed which remained the
same as stock scooter, but it landed at 8000 revs (exacty at peak power
revs) as opposed to bouncing off the limiter around 8600 revs.

Absolutely Win/Win modification.

I continued to change the variator to the Mallosi Multivar and tried a lot
of different weights of regular rollers and sliders in it too, it worked even
better in that CVT.

IMHO, every scooter should come stock with Dr Pulley sliders, and
it's starting to happen (Aprilia SRV850).
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Old 05-25-2013, 05:31 AM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandito2 View Post
I'll be in Mansfield OH. July 19, 20 & 21 camping at the Mid-Ohio Race Course where the AMA Vintage Motorcycle Days event will be going on.

It would be nice if Honda would show up at Mid-Ohio with the Forza available for test rides.
Honda was a no show at mid ohio last year. ? Too bad for them. Kawasaki has much more active travling demo show.
I will see Honda at Americade nexr week.
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Old 05-25-2013, 07:16 AM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandito2 View Post
However, if true,
then that would mean that IF the belt is indeed being forced further up the driven pulley face, then the belt is also
concurrently being pulled further down into the pulley at the clutch end. If the belt has already bottomed out at
the clutch end then there is NO WAY that the belt could go higher in the driven face.
Look at your pulleys. The manufacturers tend to set up the dimensions to keep the belt well away from the edges. There is virgin space on the front pulley faces and in the rear in my PCX150. The sliders have put my top speed back up to 67 mph from the 63 it had settled in to with .5mm loss of width of the belt from normal run in. If I wanted to take it apart again and tune the control edge of the sliders which stops their outward travel, I could set it up to use all of the pulley face even with a run in belt and get a few more mph out of it. 5% is not a big change but at least it is headed in the right way as long as you are installing the sliders for their other benefits such as friction free responsiveness of the kickdown behavior and going with a lighter mass for a more performance oriented pulling rpm. Incidentally, my fuel economy is also up this year for some reason even with the super light sliders (30% lighter than stock) I am running. My last three tanks were over 100 mpgUS for my 50 mph commute and in bad weather with the heated gear on.
.
Look at these photos again to see how they are thinner in the control stop edge than a constant radius roller to allow slightly more travel.
.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...&postcount=225
.
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Old 05-27-2013, 07:45 PM   #236
Dav101
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What Red?

I'm all about the new Forza. I used to have a 2006 Reflex (American name for the Forza) and loved riding it but I am smitten with the engine, electronics, and EFI on the new upcoming Forza. If the ergonomics are the same as the Reflex I'm buying one. (Anyone know if the legroom has changed?) Hopefully it has not been shortened any.

The only issue I have with the Forza is the Pearl Red being the only color offered in the U.S. version. I think the red Honda chose is a little too loud for my taste. In the high resolution pics it seems to be too close to fire engine red which makes it look cheap, toy like, and kind of obnoxious on such a great scooter. I know that's subjective but it is my opinion. I would rather have it in an understated color that is more elegant, classy, stately - yes I'm talking about silver or even a charcoal color. Bland, I know, but I'm older now and don't want the flashy attention anymore. Anyone know of any current Honda motorcycles offered in the same Pearl red color so I might be able to see what it will be like?

I have a PCX150 with the seat hump removed and love it too. I have the red version. It is called Candy red and it is beautiful - in fact gorgeous especially in the shade. If the Forza was offered in this darker Candy red I would be fine with that but I seriously doubt Honda will change the shade of red they have chosen for it in coming years. And who knows how long it will be offered? The Reflex disappeared in the U.S. in 2006 I believe. I'm getting one before that happens again.

Maybe I'm being too critical and I will have to wait until I actually see it in person. But I have a feeling it's going to be a little too "LOOK AT ME NOW!" red for my taste. God help me if the 2015 model year doesn't have another color choice.

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Old 05-27-2013, 08:40 PM   #237
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I have a red 2013 PCX 150 that Honda calls "Candy Red." I think that color looks rich (my wife went for the "Metallic Black"). I used to be in the imaging industry and well aware that monitors differ in color temperature, but the Forza red on Honda's site appears to be a brighter red than the PCX.
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Old 05-27-2013, 08:57 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptnJim View Post
I have a red 2013 PCX 150 that Honda calls "Candy Red." I think that color looks rich (my wife went for the "Metallic Black"). I used to be in the imaging industry and well aware that monitors differ in color temperature, but the Forza red on Honda's site appears to be a brighter red than the PCX.
Jim,

Your right. I see it listed on Honda PowerSports.com as Candy Red not Luxury red. I'll edit my post above. If you goto hondapowersports.com click on scooter, click model overview on the forza, click colors, right click on the seat, click on save picture as... Then do the same for the PCX after changing the black default color option to red. Now open both the high resolution pictures you just saved in side by side windows. Aggggggghhhhh!!!!!

If you can remember what the beautiful dark candy red color looks like on your scooter (I remember reading their not with you currently) and imagine now what that Forza red is going to look like comparatively... hooboy!

Again, just my opinion but when you look at them this way at the same time on the same monitor, the pearl red ...

I'm looking at the pic of the Pearl Red Forza full screen on a 30" monitor with a native 2560x1600 resolution and it is blinding me compared to the Candy red of the PCX!!!

Too flashy for my conservative taste.

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Old 05-28-2013, 07:43 AM   #239
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The V-Strom I recently sold was black (flat and glossy). I was ready for a change with the PCX. The last red motorcycle I had was an H-D in the 80s. I guess I've not been swayed too much regarding the color of a bike, as long as it wasn't baby blue or any shade of green. I'm old enough to remember a green bike is bad luck.

Wait 'till you see one in person. I wasn't a fan of the PCX styling based on the images, but was impressed when I saw it in person. Interesting how sitting on a bike can change your impression.

Good luck with the search.

Jim
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:19 PM   #240
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The Forza is definitely on my "scooters to check out" list. Two big issues will be valves and OTD price. The Kymco People GTi 300 has also caught my attention, and I'm pretty sure the valves are easy to get to on it. I also like it's flat floor. Even though they are totally different, I like the looks of both. Either one would give me the freeway capability I want.
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