ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > Regional forums > Canada
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-17-2013, 10:17 AM   #46
G-Mac
Gnarly Adventurer
 
G-Mac's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Peterborough Ontario Canada
Oddometer: 377
What allowing them to live in the Squaller. They choose to stay there. Their ancestors would have moved so to say they are living off the land is bullshit. Their ancestors were a lot smarter and would move and adapt. They aren't following their own culture one of pride sustainability and perseverance. Again take responsibility for your self. I work with and have known several native and minority people. And from their mouths you must move on and use the tools and opportunities given and allotted to them. We need to get rid of their leaders or teach their leaders how to better themselves knowledge through education not throw money at them.
Rant done
__________________
G-Mac
Take the road of greatest resistance
2013 F800GS All Around Awesome Triple A
2002 XR250R Dirty Girl so fun to ride
1997 KLR 650 miss the old girl. Never washed!
G-Mac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2013, 05:37 PM   #47
aquadog
Dude Buddha
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Yukon
Oddometer: 654
If another government dumped $100,000,000 on a band I was Chief of, over just a few years, nobody would live in squalor unless they wanted to...but sometimes you do have to be a relative of the clan in power. Perhaps the biggest mistake the feds have made is to trust the various band councils to administer large amounts of money in a reasonable, sophisticated and equitable way, without sufficient oversight.

Earlier comment about a huge federal bureaucracy benefiting from this? Reportedly only 16% of the budget goes to administration, the rest goes to the bands. I'm sure there's waste, and you could get that down to 10%, but still not awful. Or maybe it's just so much money, they can't beef it up beyond 16%....
aquadog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2013, 06:18 PM   #48
Steve G. OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Steve G.'s Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: West is the Best
Oddometer: 6,711
Quote:
Originally Posted by newhoco View Post
It is a horrible problem that must be overcome , we cannot allow a subset of our population to live in squalor and poverty .
A significant part of the problem would seem to be in trying to reconcile the concept of aboriginal peoples " living off the land " in remote parts of our vast country , and the access to modern goods and services that only a metropolis can provide .
The ancient model of inland tribes involved a nomadic lifestyle , moving with the herds , or seasons , giving rise to the notion of " stewardship of the land " , but actually it meant moving on when the resources of one area were depleted , ad infinitum . Of course , it also meant periodic famines , lower life expectancy ,child mortality ... all those things that Darwin would say are necessary mechanisms to promote survival of the fittest , and / or the checks and balances that keep all species in an ecosystem in equilibrium .
Our modern system requires that those nomadic peoples be locked in one place forever , so they may be provided with the kind of infrastructure previously only available in a city : flush toilets , requiring sewage treatment systems ; running water piped into every home , requiring water purification plants ; permanent housing , with heat and all modern conveniences ; medical centers , staffed and equipped as well as any such centre in Toronto or North Bay ; schools , expected to meet standards of any in urban centres....
History has proven that this is not a sustainable model , especially not if we also make every member of these communities a life-long welfare recipient , with no incentive to better their lot .
Another important aspect to consider , and not given any airtime , is the massive bureaucracy that is IANA . Huge buildings , staffed with legions of self serving drones who benefit from the current system , indeed they created the system for their own benefit . Indeed , I would wager that there are more " whites" overseeing the system , than there are aboriginals , and those " whites " enjoy a far higher standard of living than not only the aboriginal peoples , but also the average Canadian taxpayer . The massive cost of this bureaucracy is never included in the calculation of the amount expended on the individual bands - a taxpayer revolt would ensue.
A way forward ? I believe only assimilation will work . Just as we have thriving Sikh , or Hindu , or Filipino , or Italian individuals and communities throughout our nation , so should we have Aboriginal peoples , in our schools and workplaces , improving our multi-cultural society with their presence . Just as every other Hyphenated - Canadian ,
they should own property , vote , pay taxes , keep their cultural traditions alive , return to their ancestral lands as often as they can afford to , in short - to be Canadian citizens .

You sir, have summed this entire mess very accurately. Unfortunately, this truth of the situation would be quickly dismissed by the massive beaucracy and the aboriginals in one giant landslide of rejection.

We the taxpayer, are truly fucked.
Steve G. is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2013, 06:23 PM   #49
Steve G. OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Steve G.'s Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: West is the Best
Oddometer: 6,711
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
At the risk of this thread getting buried in the usual gun/us politics threads in the 'basement', I'll start this particular thread In 'Canada' as it's unique to Canada. Moderators, feel free to move it to the basement if you so choose.


I've got particular concerns about this movement. Not just the first nations regular citizens deplorable plight, and the band leaders' grand luxurious living on taxpayers bottomless spending. But I've got concerns that this movement is something that the 'occupy' movement can now hang it's hat on, with all of their various bitches/rants/demands. I am worried about this one.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews...03-200333.html


My original worries that this movement would quickly be taken over by anyone and everyone with a bitch against the 'system' has been confirmed. Wednesday there was the usual group who have taken over this peacefull movement, again with no one voice, just many voices with many bitches.
The taxpayers really are going to get this one up the rear. Lets see, no more resource extraction, ANYWHERE,,,,,,,,everyone wants more services from government, no-one wants to pay for anything. Geez!
Steve G. is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2013, 08:40 PM   #50
Commuter Boy
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2003
Location: Burnaby, BC
Oddometer: 2,808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
You sir, have summed this entire mess very accurately. Unfortunately, this truth of the situation would be quickly dismissed by the massive beaucracy and the aboriginals in one giant landslide of rejection.

We the taxpayer, are truly fucked.
Finally, you're starting to get it. The real value of Idle No More is that at last the grassroots of the First Nations have had enough. Enough with their Chiefs, enough with the Federal government and their bureaucrats mismanaging them, wasting money and not getting results, enough of being ignored.

They WANT us to call our politicians and tell them to change things. They WANT their Chiefs to realize they might not get elected unless they get off the gravy train and start making progressive change. They WANT things to be made public, so that political pressure can be brought to bear on a broken system.

I would expect you'd be the first person to be out there with them shouting that things are broken, and need to change.

Seriously though, we're getting to a point where the FN are now moving past the last hundred years of abuse, of being marginalized, and separated from Canadian society. That's a GOOD THING. Not all of them are eloquent speakers or statesmen who can make it clear how to fix things, but the frustration with the status quo is clear.
Commuter Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 06:12 AM   #51
Dan Alexander
Ride Far - Ride Fast
 
Dan Alexander's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Now only Montreal
Oddometer: 7,001
Think they will ever accept the fact that they need to get off reserves and join main stream society as their only real path to the future?
__________________
Beemers Past and Present: 74 R90S, 77 R100RS, 85 K100RS, 2x 87 K100RS, 96 R1100GS (getting hacked), 99 R1100S, 2002 R1150GS, 2005 F650 Dakar
Plus the occasional Triumph, BSA, Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki and KTM but who's counting
Dan Alexander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 06:31 AM   #52
RobbieO
Banned
 
RobbieO's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: Dumpmere - Muskoka
Oddometer: 8,161
Nope........
RobbieO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 05:33 PM   #53
Moving Pictures
Sir Loin of Biff
 
Moving Pictures's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: God's Country, New Brunswick
Oddometer: 8,566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
I'm not a harperite either,,,I was kind of joking about those who literally thought the sky was going to fall when he was voted in. I'd rather have a boring, weird looking fiscal conservative spending my tax money rather than the ultimate fence sitters or the socialists. And another Trudeau running things? Don't even want to go there,,,,,,,
Except your fiscal conservative has increased the debt by 25 per cent, and outspent any other regime, period, while running roughshod over the environment, ignoring the law (robocalls, conflict of interest) and who knows what else.

History says the Conservatives fuck up the country's finances, bag the economy into the toilet with screwed up, flawed, Keynsian economic thinking (despite multiple instances of such action being a waste of taxpayer cash).... then the Liberals get in and fix the mess.

History is repeating itself. I just hope there's enough of Canada left for the Liberals to fix in 2.5 or 6.5 years, assuming Herr Harper actually heeds the fixed election date law, given he broke that one already ...
__________________
People before prophets.
Moving Pictures is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 07:22 PM   #54
edwin
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Location: BC
Oddometer: 275
main problem? racism....
when you see someone who is native what do you think about that person....?
exactly.
that needs to change...but how??
do you think it feels nice to be suspect alll your life?
do you feel this being white and not a visable minority (or aboriginal)?
doubt it...never crossed your mind...did it.

look inside yourself.....that is where the change needs to start.

all the best to everyone...
__________________
BMW Dakar
edwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 10:23 PM   #55
Steve G. OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Steve G.'s Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: West is the Best
Oddometer: 6,711
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moving Pictures View Post
Except your fiscal conservative has increased the debt by 25 per cent, and outspent any other regime, period, while running roughshod over the environment, ignoring the law (robocalls, conflict of interest) and who knows what else.

History says the Conservatives fuck up the country's finances, bag the economy into the toilet with screwed up, flawed, Keynsian economic thinking (despite multiple instances of such action being a waste of taxpayer cash).... then the Liberals get in and fix the mess.

History is repeating itself. I just hope there's enough of Canada left for the Liberals to fix in 2.5 or 6.5 years, assuming Herr Harper actually heeds the fixed election date law, given he broke that one already ...

Yawn....

See, I bespise all polititians. And despise politics. It seems you do genuinely prefer a certain type of juice,,,,,,how else could you think the 'fence sitters' could be any better,,,during the biggest financial upheaval in the history of the human race. Seriously?
Steve G. is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 07:55 AM   #56
McJamie
STROMINATOR
 
McJamie's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Courtice, Ontario, Canada
Oddometer: 1,342
A couple of things occured to me.
Has there ever been an aboriginal or native issue that has been completely resolved to the satisfaction of all parties involved? None that I am aware of.
Also, it's pretty clear that there is corruption and mis-managment from the top government office all the way down the food chain, right to the people on the reserve. ALOT of people need to go. The easy thing would be to select a group from outside the government and outside of the native bands & chiefs to monitor all this. That have no bias or connection either way. I think a couple of steps away from the entire system, might give a clearer view. A bit idealistic I know, but it would probably work.
The other thing I'm quite tired of is hearing "We want, We want, we want", from all sides. Lets hear " we have an idea that might fix this problem".
I was taught a couple of things when I was young; One, sentences don't start with "I want", and second, if you can't fix something, shut up about it, until you have a solution.
There is no reason, even in a poor economy, for people to be living in the conditions that some of these people do. If I had no way to support my family where I lived, I would move to where I could. I know many people in the last few years that have had to do just that. Even if that meant leaving family and nieghbourhoods that had been familliar and comfortable for generations. You find a solution, and you carry it through, you don't wait for someone to hand you one.
__________________
If you get far enough away, you'll be on your way home.
Piss off, I'm in my Happy place.
McJamie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 10:01 AM   #57
Brunssd
Potemkin villager
 
Brunssd's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: At the end of Westside Road
Oddometer: 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwin View Post
main problem? racism....
when you see someone who is native what do you think about that person....?
exactly.
that needs to change...but how??
do you think it feels nice to be suspect alll your life?
do you feel this being white and not a visable minority (or aboriginal)?
doubt it...never crossed your mind...did it.

look inside yourself.....that is where the change needs to start.

all the best to everyone...
What he said. In addition, you could give their land back (or at least lease it from them) and I'm sure the AFN would call it even.
__________________
“Those who do not move, do not notice their chains” - Rosa Luxemburg
Brunssd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 02:07 PM   #58
Steve G. OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Steve G.'s Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: West is the Best
Oddometer: 6,711
It all makes me a wee bit nervous, the thought of 633 independent nations within this area called Canada. Utterly rediculous of course, but a distinct possibility, quickly followed by this area of the world called Canada becoming a backwater third world basketcase.

As we all know, capital [like, investment money] is very fluid, and travels now at the blink of an eye to the most favourable of nations on this earth. Please, in reality, consider how fast current capital would exit this juristdiction, should all 116% [that's right] of this country be handed back to FN's. seriously, think about it ..,.
Steve G. is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 03:20 PM   #59
Brunssd
Potemkin villager
 
Brunssd's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: At the end of Westside Road
Oddometer: 362
What is ridiculous is thinking that capital would allow all of Canada's resources to just lie fallow since title was returned to its original owners. They would simply have to deal with the new owners and not the already bought off European political class. The FN might not be so amenable to the resource extractors habit of externalizing every cost possible and leaving environmental ruin in their wake, cf. Fort Chipewyan.

I was just trying to move the discussion beyond the "blame the victim" rut y'all are in. We've taken the only thing of value the FN had, the land, and when we decided to literally stop killing them after a few centuries, we spend the next couple of centuries trying to annihilate their culture. And when we're done with that (not all that long ago, I might add) we ask them to explain why they are exactly where we absolutely, positively made sure that they would be.

That is also ridiculous.
__________________
“Those who do not move, do not notice their chains” - Rosa Luxemburg

Brunssd screwed with this post 01-19-2013 at 04:23 PM
Brunssd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 05:19 PM   #60
Hardware02
Beastly Adventurer
 
Hardware02's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: The Rock
Oddometer: 3,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick949eldo View Post
You rely on SUN news for your information - really! Should administrators of Bands expect to earn any less than their counterparts off-reserve? The annual family revenue of Ms. Spence is nobodies business except their own. And charging an $850 per day consulting fee doesn't mean you get to charge that every day - believe me, I know!.

i have been to Attawapiskat many times. There is NO fancy living going on there. There is not a single dwelling that would look at home in a typical BC suburb (or anywhere else in suburban Canada).

Much of the money that flows through reserves such as Attawapiskat goes in air fares ($1100+ round trip), food costs (typically 3-5 times what it is in the south) and the difficulties of maintaining even the most basic services in a remote location.

Whining about First Nations communities and individuals getting rich from government handouts just betrays woeful ignorance of the real conditions. .

Nick
Less than counterparts off reserves? Spence is a "chief" of a reserve of under 2000 people. She purportedly makes, $70K/year tax free (roughly equivalent to $90K off the reserve for someone who pays tax).

My hometown of just just over 3000 has a mayor who gets a stipend - but no salary as it's a part time position.

The mayor of Fredericton, NB makes $36,957 plus allowances (another $15,833) - not close to what Spence is scamming from all Canadians. Note Fredericton is a provincial capital with a population of over 55,000 people!

Spence's salary should absolutely be a matter of public record because it's our tax dollars!

Quote:
...Much of the money that flows through reserves such as Attawapiskat goes in air fares ($1100+ round trip)...
Why should that be federal tax dollars? Us working stiff taxpayers don't get magic gov't money to leave & return to our hometowns whenever we feel like it.


Quote:
...food costs (typically 3-5 times what it is in the south)...
Agreed. But aren't all Aboriginals out there hunting and living off the land? Shouldn't what they need to get at the local Northern Store be fairly minimal?

I'm not "ignorant" of conditions on reserves. I've been to too many and seen far too much abuse. The Criminal Code doesn't apply to them. I've seen cases of clear criminal negligence resulting in the deaths of children and because they're oppressed natives, grief counselors fly into the remote reserve but there was no discussion of the parents actually being arrested and charged.

I am disgusted with the whole situation and something needs to change - Canadians need to wake up and start holding Aboriginals accountable!

/rant off.

Sources:

Taxpayer.com

CBC
__________________
"These instructions are at our present level of
knowledge. Legal requirements do not exist.
Technical issues subject to change."
Hardware02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 07:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014