Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki & Kawasaki - Listen Up, Please...

[NJ-Brett]

People have put over 60,000 rough miles on a dr650 without engine work.
Depends on priorities I guess.

[OrangeYZ]

Originally Posted by motoman250f

There's some debate between the reliability of the ktm rfs engines and a true dual sport from what i've read in the last few years. Is everyone on here saying an rfs ktm is as reliable as a klr? drz? wrr? I understood the rfs was a detuned race class motor no different than a crx or wr.... basically good for 400 hours but not open road trustworthy after that. So your inspecting and rebuilding them in under 20k. a real japanees dual sport should double that right?
This is one of the reasons that a dual sport doesn't dip under 300 lbs often. IMHO

Reliability is not the same as longevity is not the same as durability.

[acesandeights]

Originally Posted by OrangeYZ

Reliability is not the same as longevity is not the same as durability.

Yeah, but they all end in "ity".

[mtntrails]

Originally Posted by acesandeights

Yeah, but they all end in "ity".

[OrangeYZ]

Originally Posted by acesandeights

Yeah, but they all end in "ity".

Most of them even end in "ability", and the other one brings a little "levity" to a thread that exists because the cold, dark winter makes it easier to dream about bikes than actually go ride them

[joexr]

Cold , dark winter? Its about 80 out today.

[UtahFox]

Originally Posted by joexr

Cold , dark winter? Its about 80 out today.

[Foot dragger]

Originally Posted by motoman250f

There's some debate between the reliability of the ktm rfs engines and a true dual sport from what i've read in the last few years. Is everyone on here saying an rfs ktm is as reliable as a klr? drz? wrr? I understood the rfs was a detuned race class motor no different than a crx or wr.... basically good for 400 hours but not open road trustworthy after that. So your inspecting and rebuilding them in under 20k. a real japanees dual sport should double that right?
This is one of the reasons that a dual sport doesn't dip under 300 lbs often. IMHO

There's an issue with only riding something because you think it will last for ever,and riding a light good handling bike in the dirt to make your own body last longer.
If your only putting around sight seeing then any bike will work,if you plan on going up and down steep rocky hills with big ruts and maybe mud/sand/brush compromising your right of way then a 300+ lb poorly suspended cheaply built japanese dualsport can hurt you sooner then later. Mainly its just not fun to wrestle pigs around.

A good Beta/KTM/Husky laughs at these conditions with a decent rider on it.

Lots of ADV riders never leave a graded road,no need to spend top dollar on a Euro dualsport for that,its a poser bike at that point.

[Nevada]

Originally Posted by SnappNBrrap

except honda has been building shit nobody wants and therefore doesn't sell for years now. yeah the supersport market wont change but most guys want something more like the VFR800 or the CB1100 (which needs 6speeds not 5) especially guys over 40 that cant be straining their backs over a SS all the time.

Somebody doesn't like Honda!

Usually Kawi is pretty good at finding the uninhabited niches first (at least in the US) and thats why they own the beginner's bike realm with the Ninja 250 and now the Ninja300. also the versys has completely taken off, the Connie14 (6spd) is outselling the FJR13 (5spd) and the whiney ST13, the KLR is still the best selling 650DS thumper and the New ZX-636 even though it doesnt own its market, it still offers more than the competitors.

The only "niche" that Kawi found there is a result of them staying in the 250 streetbike market for longer than Honda. (Nighthawk 250). The Versys is a poor attempt at cloning the WeeStrom, and the Triumph Daytona 675 has been ruling the supersport class for years now. Kawi sucks. Rotten limes. And zombie pus.

Also the Supermoto Market is where I'd be investing my money right now if i was in their shoes. but suzuki is the only one of the big4 with a big enough bike (DRZ400SM) to do everything. KTM, Husaberg, Husky, and Yamaha (except in US) are making 400+ cc bikes in this market and havin success, why cant Kawi and Honda do it?

They can, they just don't see the market.

Honestly the bike spoken of would be something like the WR450 with a 6spd with a full light kit standard, but a regular WR450f is over $8200 msrp which is ridiculous. a friggin 450cc non-legal single cylinder costs $1000 more than my 600cc, road-legal, fuel injected (2012 WR is FI), sportbike ($7200 new in '09). an offroad machine should cost about $5500-$6500 at the most. but honestly most people would still just buy a used RFS KTM, or a CRF-X, or WR450 and put lights and crap on it and for under $5000 have a kickass bike.

You can't compare pricing of dissimilar bikes across the years, especially with the recent run up due to the weakness of the dollar.

Moving on, most people WON'T buy a used whatever and put lights and crap on it. They may not have any interest in putting lights on it, and it may not even be legal where they live. Plus, they'v got to find a dirtbike that hasn't been thrashed, always a concern with any used bike, even more so with the higher strung (dirtbikes, MX bikes, race-replica streetbikes) ones. One thing forgotten about all these wonderful dirtbikes is they make, relatively speaking, LOUSY streetbikes for most people, even with "lights and crap". They're too frickin' tall. Seriously, if you put your foot down on the dirt and "things happen", you fall on your keester, your buddies whip out their cameras and take pictures, everybody laughs and you mount back up and go. On the street, where you're putting your foot down while stopping far more frequently, falling down can get you killed. You don't have buddies with you on your commute, there aren't a lot of convenient logs and rocks to put a foot on, and the cagers definitely aren't your friends. So next you supermoto the bike. Smaller wheels, fatter tires, instant lowering. Regear it. Add "lights and crap", weight goes up. Sling your college bag full of books on the tail, and one day you're toodling along, hit a speed bump wrong, and voila, the tail collapses, dumping your books into your rear wheel with "unpredictable" (but likely dire) results.

[Nevada]

Originally Posted by Albie

True, but in '09 Yammy dealers were selling R6's for $6800. Same with Kawi and the ZX6, I almost pulled the trigger on a Monster edition for $6895. Because the manufacturers cut back production so much, they've raised the prices significantly.

And in '09, you could get an WR250 for 4k. Why do you think there are SO blasted many '08 WR250s around??? Where are the '09s? The '10s? :

The prices haven't gone up because of production cutbacks, they've gone up because of the weakness of the dollar, the purported reasons for which are a subject for another thread down in the basement.

[Sierra Thumper]

Originally Posted by Foot dragger

All those new 450's are designed with a fairly short fuse,by the time a japanese factory got done homoginizing/plating one it would weigh over 300 lbs and make 30 hp if your lucky.
Its just how they do it.

KTM some how can sell a 350/530 street legal. I dont think its worth it to the asian factories to do so.

I actually have to agree......even tho they could strengthen the necessary engine parts to make it last, it would somehow magically lose about half its hp making the conversion to the street, and gain 50-60lbs or more

The same thing happens with the japanese american street offerings, especially the sportbikes.....BMW's S1000RR puts out over 20 more hp than kawi's ZX10, not because its more powerful, but because the kawi is factory limited to 20hp less. It was a huge debacle in the sportbike world when the new ZX10 was released, since it was supposed to be a direct competitor in the power department with the BMW......and with a simple ecu reflash it gains the lost 20 hp plus some.
But from the factory its purposely nuetered, as are all the other japanese 1000's to some degree sold in america. Most other parts of the world still get the full power versions of these bikes though
And no matter how much the magazines grill the japanese makers, they never say why the U.S. gets nuetered bikes.

I remember when the japanese were about performance first and foremost.....but I have to agree with others here, I doubt we'll be seeing any kind of true, reasonably priced, high performance dual sport from the japanese. For whatever reason they just don't have the kahunas to make one

I guess its time to pay the premium and Go Orange!!

[Sierra Thumper]

Originally Posted by UtahFox

We have a similiar view here.........I hate winter
But when the weathers nice we have some of the best off-roading in the world just beyond my doorstep.....so I guess its a trade-off I can live with

[Butters]

There seems to be two streams of thought in this thread. Okay, more than two, but two main ones. One, where people want a streetable 450 woods bike comparable to KTM/Husky and another group where people want a bigger version of the WR250R or a DRZ that doesn't seem two decades old.

I'd definitely fall into the latter category. I'd be fine with a 450cc bike even if it was over 300 lbs, but still south of 325. Just give it reasonable power and a sensible transmission (i.e. a DRZ that wasn't a step backward from a DR350). That's still not a woods bike, but it would be a lightweight adventure bike that could adequately cover a lot of terrain.

But that bike won't satisfy the folks that want a 260lb Japanese KTM. So even if they make a mythical 450 DS, you can bet half the market will still be unsatisfied.

(Except a revised DRZ with a 6 speed and a 40HP 450 would cost suzuki pennies.)

[Gundy]

I was looking at one of the new WR450Fs this weekend and the salesman pulled out the service manual. He showed me a table that said valve checks were at 600 miles, then 3,000 miles......did I read that right? Maybe it was a non-race table? That's not all that bad for the average weekend warrior if I was reading it correctly. Baja kit is $375 and they were selling the leftover at the same price as the 250R....clear choice for me at 90% dirt. Daily commuter, probably not.

[marc11]

I think the issue is larger than tooling or R&D costs, we know most companies have engines and bikes that can be slightly changed to work. Take a KLX450 and make it street legal like the KLX250s, its not that hard and would cost little to do so. But the issue is multi faceted, first in order to sell a bike in large numbers to make a profit you need to sell it in more than one country usually. To do that a company needs to get every new bike inspected and passed to be sold as street legal in every single country they wish to sell it in, that takes time and costs money.

Second, most companies are moving toward world bikes and modular designs, creating a special purpose engine or frame for just one bike to be sold in one or two countries just doesn't make economic sense.

Third, many countries, especially the larger growing ones like India, China and others have severe limitations on engine size with cost penalties for engines over certain cc range, usually 125 to 250; so to be a world engine, and to sell in large numbers these factors need to be considered....especially for Japanese companies who look to sell in Japan first where small displacement bikes rule the roost.

Finally the bikes purpose. Outside of the USA most countries see bikes not as play things but as tools, commuter vehicles, delivery vehicles and daily drivers. They do not have much use for a hard core single purpose dual sport that gets 40 MPG, what a freaking joke that a lot of bikes sold here in the US get under 40 MPG and few get over 50. In most other countries economy and economics of use are important, so a maxed out, high strung engine that makes huge power, 450cc and gets 40 MPG really will not sell in large numbers globally.

Here in Japan the only bikes I see WITHOUT top cases and hand guards for winter use are cruisers; ever single bike I have seen has a top case and everyone is clearly a multi-use bike.

Sure, in the EU and in the US sport bikes and high powered dual sports sell well, but outside of there, it is the smaller, lower powered multipurpose bikes which sell more and which are the future.

Thus, we get what we get from the big four Japanese companies, I do not see that changing as they are looking at the home markets and growing Asian markets as the future for sales and the formual there is different.

Me, I would just be happy with a KLR that had fuel injection and a six speed, but as noted above, I do not see that happening anytime soon, there really is just no reason, people will buy the same amount here anyway...

One mans opinion anyway.