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Old 06-10-2013, 09:32 PM   #316
mtntrails OP
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Crf300l?

It looks as though Honda is preparing to bump up the displacement of the CBR250R to a 300 to better compete with the Ninja 300... http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-...ing/22716.html

It would be pretty cool if they did this with the CRF250L. That might come close to hitting the spot for a lot of folks.
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Old 06-11-2013, 05:40 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by mtntrails View Post
It looks as though Honda is preparing to bump up the displacement of the CBR250R to a 300 to better compete with the Ninja 300... http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-...ing/22716.html

It would be pretty cool if they did this with the CRF250L. That might come close to hitting the spot for a lot of folks.
Single against a twin , no comparison.
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Old 06-13-2013, 08:55 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
Single against a twin , no comparison.
The CBR250R is a thumper - same core motor as the CRF250L - different mapping
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Old 06-13-2013, 06:34 PM   #319
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Eek

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Originally Posted by mtntrails View Post
The CBR250R is a thumper - same core motor as the CRF250L - different mapping
No shit Sherlock , but the Ninja 300 is a twin. t would eat a DRZ400 let alone a lowly 250.
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:26 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by mtntrails View Post
It looks as though Honda is preparing to bump up the displacement of the CBR250R to a 300 to better compete with the Ninja 300... http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-...ing/22716.html

It would be pretty cool if they did this with the CRF250L. That might come close to hitting the spot for a lot of folks.
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Old 10-25-2013, 04:33 AM   #321
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So, here we are.... January of 2013. The motorcycle show circuit is winding around the US. All of the big shows like EICMA and Tokyo where the manufacturers show off their new models are well in the rear view mirror. All of the new models are in or well on their way to dealer showrooms. No mid- size, mass market dualsport. What gets me is that I was sitting here in January of 2008 shaking my head over the very same thing.

I'm not currently looking to buy a new bike, but my family and I have bought several thumpers (3 WR250Xs, 1 WR250R, a 690 SMC and a 690 Enduro R) over the past 4 years that ALL would have been this bike had it existed. OK, maybe not the SMC.

The Suzuki DR-Z400S is the only mass market, mid size dual sport currently on the market. It is now 14 model years old. It's a really good bike - no doubt, but it is long in the tooth and has limitations for quite a few applications. Years ago, I bought a DR-Z and set it up for long-haul travel out west. Overall, I was pretty impressed with most aspects of the bike, but it came up short in a few. It really needed a 6th gear as it was pretty wound up at highway speeds. The electrical system was not capable of handling heated gear. I had several rides where I was frozen to my bones because of this. The one limitation that eventually triggered the sale of that bike was the carb and limited jetting. The bike ran fine up to 7000 feet. By 8500 feet it ran noticeably rough and by 11000 feet, I could barely ride it no matter how I adjusted the mixture. There are few tasks as sucky as having to re-jet your bike in the middle of a trip in a motel or diner parking lot just to be able to ride in high altitudes - and then having to do it again when riding below 5000 feet. I sold it with just 7000 miles on the odo.

One of the posters on this thread argued that there is a pretty limited market for dualsport bikes and the bean counters at the "big 4" can't justify the R&D to create such a bike. I would argue that the reason for a soft market is because the bikes they are offering are long ago obsolete - especially if you include the mass market 650 class dualsports they are currently offering. I would also argue that there is not only a demand for a modern, mid size dualsport, there is a big void. If a bike like this came on the market, there would not only be a strong demand for it, it would fill what is really a vacuum in the market place.
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Originally Posted by mtntrails View Post
You guys are "missing the boat" in a big way...

The market is (and has been for years) screaming out for a proper, modern, mid-size (300cc - 450cc) dual-sport - a more potent version of the excellent Yamaha WR250R & Honda CRF250L

35 - 45 RWHP
Fuel Injection
6-speed Tranny
Target Weight at or Under 300lbs
3000-4000 Mile Oil Change Intervals
15k + Mile Valve Adjustment Intervals
Modern, Fully Adjustable Suspension
A Subframe Capable of Carrying Luggage & Camping Gear
An Electrical System Capable of Running Heated Gear, GPS, etc.
Build it for Unquestionable Reliability & Durability
$5000 - $9000 MSRP (depending on displacement & specs)

ADVRider, ThumperTalk, HorizonsUnlimited, et al are filled with threads and posts lamenting this huge "hole" in the marketplace. When will the "Big 4" step up and build this bike? Whoever is the first out of the gate will have a blockbuster hit on their hands - the rest will hopefully follow.

Don't forget to build a SM version too!


Show time!
EICMA is next week. Tokyo show begins 11/20. Other than the KTM 390, I have not heard any credible rumors. CCM is about to launch a 450 adventure bike that looks pretty appealing, but they have no real presence in the U.S.

mtntrails screwed with this post 10-25-2013 at 04:43 AM
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:24 AM   #322
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drz

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Originally Posted by NJ-Brett View Post
They also have few mid sized street bikes for sale in the US.
The jump is a 250 to a few 650's I think.
There are a number of 250's, which are too small for the US speed limits and distances no matter how good the motor is, plus they tend to be very small in overall size.
The new Ninja 300 helps I suppose, where are the rest of the 300/350's?
What is the speed limit in Texas now, 85 mph?

I am sure all the manufacturers have a bunch of old proven engine designs around that just need the addition of FI and a cat to make them good, dr350 and dr650 motors, a drz 400 motor with a wide ratio trans.
Would it really cost them much to change a gear or two in the DRZ to get a wide ratio trans for the US?

You would think it would be easy to just stick a wide ratio drz 400 motor in a street bike as well, one motor, two bikes, a dual sport and a mid size sport bike?

Take the dr650 motor and make a TU650 out of it, and a light 650 sport bike.

So what do they do? They seem to come up with totally new designs for anything new they come up with.

In the past, Honda used the same basic motor in three bikes! The sl/cl/cb 350 comes to mind.

So what is wrong with using something like a drz motor in quads, street bikes, and dual sport bikes?
Would that not save a boat load of money?

I for one do not think the people in charge are always so smart.
The DRZ 400 motor has been in Suzuki Quads for a while, and it's FI, my dealer told me the DR 400 engine for the bikes came fom the Quad, true or not, I don't know, but there is a FI 400 Quad. I think Suzuki is still having big time money problems. CMS
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:39 AM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMS View Post
The DRZ 400 motor has been in Suzuki Quads for a while, and it's FI, my dealer told me the DR 400 engine for the bikes came fom the Quad, true or not, I don't know, but there is a FI 400 Quad. I think Suzuki is still having big time money problems. CMS
The LTZ 400 uses the same motor from the DRZ but it has a carb, and reverse

the LTR 450 uses the engien from the motocross/enduro line RMZ 450 and has FI but no reverse
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:55 AM   #324
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THE problem here with getting Japanese 4 to produce this 450cc bike is economics.

The 250cc version of this bike is a world-wide sales bike. What they build can be sold in every market. It's the big bike at 250cc, but it can be sold non the less. A 450cc is too big for many markets and those market are ones that sell alot of bikes. In many of the places the 450cc version can sell it would only sell in small numbers as a rec bike. If the Japanese 4 thought they could make $ on it, at least 1 would have tried. They don't care what a small niche of ADVers want, they want to sell alot of bikes as profit is the motive.

450cc dirtbikes do exist as there are sold in most of the world and sell well enough. Since off-road, size restrictions not in play also. The DR400 still sells in the US because it's old and paid for and CAFE rules (written so the auto mfg can sell profitable yet dirty & thirsty SUVs) allow the DR to still be sold and be offset but other more fuel-efficient and cleaner models.

Add to that everyone is still recovering financially and will only invest $ in what they think are sales home runs...so don't hold your breath.
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Old 10-25-2013, 01:32 PM   #325
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eakins - thank you for your comments.

While I partially agree, particularly with "don't hold your breath" Where I would disagree is on the data that they may be using to guage the market. If they are utilizing sales data for current models, of course it's not going to look that good - all of their current models are very long-in-the-tooth - good bikes for their time, but all of them are 1980s and 1990s technology - it's almost 2014! The DRZ400 was introduced in 1998 and that's the newest of the bunch (including 650s). Since all of these bikes have been around virtually unchanged for 15-20+ years, there's lots of good used ones available which takes considerable numbers away from new bike sales.

They keep giving us the same old models with bold new graphics. As a customer, this ticks me off. All of the "big four" are taking us for granted and have been for some time.

I would like to believe (yeah, yeah) that threads / blogs like this one, as well as phone calls and e-mails might get their attention and get them thinking about what their customers want and fulfilling that demand. That's really the point of this thread. Unless we speak up, we'll keep getting the same ol', same ol'.
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Old 10-25-2013, 04:33 PM   #326
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you're welcome.

you are assuming the Japanese mfg. will build something new because the old design is that old and must be updated...a bunch of people on ADV and other websites want the new stuff. they build when it makes the best biz/financial sense to them nothing more nothing less. they are not doing to this appease what we want on ADV and what we think they should so

2 things. #1 the Japanese 4 will build when they think they can make some good $ on a bike model and sell it around the world, not when the old stuff hits so many years old. that's KTM m/o, not Japan Inc. #2 if they can still legally sell these old models (that's have been paid for many times over) in certain markets and people still buy them, why would they change their methods? r&d costs serious $ that must be recouped. selling the same old machine just keeps producing steady profits.

the 450cc street-legal dual-sport bike concept is not unknown to the Japanese mfg. they choose, from a financial stand point, not to build one. if talked to many a Japanese rep about current bikes and future ones. Japan Inc. will only move when it's in their best $ sense to do so. hate to tell you this, it's about their profits, not your desires or being ticked off. don't like it? buy a euro brand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mtntrails View Post
eakins - thank you for your comments.

While I partially agree, particularly with "don't hold your breath" Where I would disagree is on the data that they may be using to guage the market. If they are utilizing sales data for current models, of course it's not going to look that good - all of their current models are very long-in-the-tooth - good bikes for their time, but all of them are 1980s and 1990s technology - it's almost 2014! The DRZ400 was introduced in 1998 and that's the newest of the bunch (including 650s). Since all of these bikes have been around virtually unchanged for 15-20+ years, there's lots of good used ones available which takes considerable numbers away from new bike sales.

They keep giving us the same old models with bold new graphics. As a customer, this ticks me off. All of the "big four" are taking us for granted and have been for some time.

I would like to believe (yeah, yeah) that threads / blogs like this one, as well as phone calls and e-mails might get their attention and get them thinking about what their customers want and fulfilling that demand. That's really the point of this thread. Unless we speak up, we'll keep getting the same ol', same ol'.
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:43 PM   #327
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WHile many Americans don't yet see it, I think the rest of the World is adjusting it's expectations for expendable income for U.S. workers. As we go forward, blue collar folks and young people will have less and less to spend on things like dual sport motorcycles.

Scooter sales have a bright future.
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:09 PM   #328
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WHile many Americans don't yet see it, I think the rest of the World is adjusting it's expectations for expendable income for U.S. workers. As we go forward, blue collar folks and young people will have less and less to spend on things like dual sport motorcycles.

Scooter sales have a bright future.
Dual sport bikes are some of the most affordable on the market, especially if you consider that adding a set of supermoto wheels/tires essentially gives you two bikes in one. I think the $10,000-$15,000 + sport bike and cruiser market is going to be hurt more if you think disposable income is drying up.

That being said, I think a WR450R dual sport costing right around $7999 would sell like crazy. I'd be the first in line.
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:29 PM   #329
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Dual sport motorcycles are a rare breed as determined by market demand. Most of Americans interested in offroad-capable motorcycles are either riding MX bikes on tracks, riding trail bikes on trails, or riding ADV-touring bikes mainly on the street. Everyone else who does something in between or in combination is a very small minority (which this forum seems to over-represent in the minds of people like the OP). That's why the dual sport market is ignored.

Look at every manufacturer from Kawi to Yama to KTM...tons of MX and trail bikes, a few ADV bikes, one or two street legal dirt bikes/dual sports. As has been stated in this thread, that's what the market demands and that's what it gets regardless of what a few thousand people "demand" online. Demand is not what is begged for in threads like this, demand is when a person goes and actually buys something with their money. If dual sports were selling like hot cakes then all the manufacturers would be offering a lot more options in that vein including what so many of us drool over on this forum and others like it.

If manufacturers were to come out with these kinds of bikes despite the lack of true market demand, half the people begging for them wouldn't buy them for whatever reason even if they could afford it. Like women, the market often does not know what it wants...but manufacturers know. Some companies make dildos which get used by more women than are willing to admit it in a market survey, but the sales numbers don't lie...other companies make motorcycles that aren't quite good enough for picky dual sport riders despite their needs and desires being 90% filled by the current offerings, again the sales numbers don't lie but people typing on keyboards do. Admittedly I believe dual sport riders are picky because we have legitimately complex demands (riding environment, etc.) unlike the masses of cruiser and sport bike riders...but we're picky nonetheless and that doesn't please the makers of motorcycles.

If enough people got over their pipe-dreams for mystical dual sport motos and settled on an existing dual sport to purchase new, then the manufacturers would see the sales increases and start offering more options if it was profitable...that's what's happened in all the other popular moto markets such as cruisers, sport bikes, and ATVs. It's a give and take situation not just something that the manufacturers arbitrarily decide on. When dual sport riders because a significantly profitable market segment then our demands will be listened to very carefully. Will that ever happen? I don't believe so; too many people prefer the simple-minded Sunday ride to Starbucks over the challenges of dual sport riding. Most riders don't want and can't handle a challenge of any sort beyond keeping the bike upright and intact.
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:54 PM   #330
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So, what you are saying is that if we buy more of their old obsolete bikes, they'll start building new modern bikes?
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