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Old 01-24-2013, 06:52 PM   #76
acesandeights
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordo5 View Post
Unfortunately you're right, but it is showing growth. Still, kind of sad to be outsold by scooters....

http://blog.motorcycle.com/2012/01/2...sales-results/
Another way to look at that, and it's been the case for at least a couple/few years, is that the dual sport market continues to grow where others do not. Dual sport is the fastest growing group in motorcycle sales, and has been.
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:22 PM   #77
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The 09s are going for about that now.
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:00 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by gordo5 View Post
Unfortunately you're right, but it is showing growth. Still, kind of sad to be outsold by scooters....

http://blog.motorcycle.com/2012/01/2...sales-results/

It would be interesting to see the stats for 2012. From everything I have read, the motorcycle industry made pretty good strides last year. KTM, BMW & Ducati all had banner sales in 2012. I wonder how the "big 4" did last year?

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Old 01-25-2013, 03:24 AM   #79
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They will never sell a DS/standard in the numbers you speak of until they lower the dang things enough that new riders can comfortably reach the ground... It blows my mind that 33" seems to be the minimum, with shorter riders scrambling to add Kouba links, shave saddles, etc just to make them manageable as commuters; doesn't seem to me to be the way to attract a new demographic.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:25 AM   #80
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Dual sports may be just a niche to Yamaha, Kawasaki and Suzuki or place to dump restyled world market commuter bikes for Honda. But KTM and BMW seem to be doing just fine filling that niche with premium priced machines. It also looks like Husky may have hit one out of the park. At least in their terms for sales. If BMW dealers pick up selling those I expect to start seeing a lot more red and white bikes. There are a lot of really good dual sports out there right now being sold by companies perfectly happy to fill the void in the Big Four lineup. So, to be blunt about it, who gives a damn whether the Japanese see a market here?
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:57 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Grreatdog View Post
Dual sports may be just a niche to Yamaha, Kawasaki and Suzuki or place to dump restyled world market commuter bikes for Honda. But KTM and BMW seem to be doing just fine filling that niche with premium priced machines. It also looks like Husky may have hit one out of the park. At least in their terms for sales. If BMW dealers pick up selling those I expect to start seeing a lot more red and white bikes. There are a lot of really good dual sports out there right now being sold by companies perfectly happy to fill the void in the Big Four lineup. So, to be blunt about it, who gives a damn whether the Japanese see a market here?
I agree
Besides there's plenty of used options to pick up a premium bike for a less than premium price
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:15 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Grreatdog View Post
Dual sports may be just a niche to Yamaha, Kawasaki and Suzuki or place to dump restyled world market commuter bikes for Honda. But KTM and BMW seem to be doing just fine filling that niche with premium priced machines. It also looks like Husky may have hit one out of the park. At least in their terms for sales. If BMW dealers pick up selling those I expect to start seeing a lot more red and white bikes. There are a lot of really good dual sports out there right now being sold by companies perfectly happy to fill the void in the Big Four lineup. So, to be blunt about it, who gives a damn whether the Japanese see a market here?


KTM, BMW and Husky aren't filling this void either. All of the mid-size bikes in their current lineups fall under the "hard enduro" subcategory - designed and built as short-haul, trail to trail bikes with frequent maintenance intervals. The KTM 690 & Husky TE 610/630 are the only thumpers in their lineups that come close to the specs that we're (I'm) referring to. Don't get me wrong - I have an older tagged 400 EXC that I dearly love, but it's not a bike that I would take on an extended road trip.

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Old 01-25-2013, 05:21 AM   #83
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So who says you can't put a Renazco seat on an EXC500 and ride it wherever the hell you want? Same for a TE511. You don't have to ride them like race bikes. And if you don't then you don't have to maintain them like race bikes. I am riding a crazy fast 200 two stroke MX bike as my city commuter and it hasn't blown up, killed me or upset the balance of the universe.

Why be so self limiting about dual sports when there is so much out there right now? I have been riding nothing but dual sports for 35 years. I have owned everything form 125's to my current 640. And these are the best times I have ever lived through for model range. You can buy anything from 200 cow trailer to a 1200 horizon eater with pretty much everything in between.

So what if you need to tailor them a bit? That is what makes it fun. Yet there is thread after thread of people fretting about the Japanese not giving us the perfect 450 bike. Take the 690, it hardly weighs more than a Japanese 250 dual sport and less than a DRZ400. It will go as far as you want. Since it weighs less than this unicorn of a WR450R would anyway I would argue that it IS a midsized dual sport.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:31 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by dogjaw View Post
They will never sell a DS/standard in the numbers you speak of until they lower the dang things enough that new riders can comfortably reach the ground... It blows my mind that 33" seems to be the minimum, with shorter riders scrambling to add Kouba links, shave saddles, etc just to make them manageable as commuters; doesn't seem to me to be the way to attract a new demographic.
I suspect bacuse it is hard to make a bike with 10-12" of suspension travel with 21'/18" wheels and have a low seat.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:40 AM   #85
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I suspect bacuse it is hard to make a bike with 10-12" of suspension travel with 21'/18" wheels and have a low seat.
And not everyone is short.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:59 AM   #86
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I am old school and will trade some suspension for a lower bike with a lower center of gravity, and just pick better lines. I am not racing, and a lower lighter bike is a lot easier to ride in many spots then a tall heavy bike is.
The tall bike is faster through the rough stuff, but I do not think its easier, just faster.
Low bikes are somewhat easy to ride in thick sand, tall bikes are tough unless its at warp speed.

I once sat on (or tried to) an xr650l at the dealers, and at 6 foot tall I was on my tippy toes.
Then, on many street bikes, the seat is so low its useless for a normal size adult.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:25 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Grreatdog View Post
So who says you can't put a Renazco seat on an EXC500 and ride it wherever the hell you want? Same for a TE511. You don't have to ride them like race bikes. And if you don't then you don't have to maintain them like race bikes. I am riding a crazy fast 200 two stroke MX bike as my city commuter and it hasn't blown up, killed me or upset the balance of the universe.

Why be so self limiting about dual sports when there is so much out there right now? I have been riding nothing but dual sports for 35 years. I have owned everything form 125's to my current 640. And these are the best times I have ever lived through for model range. You can buy anything from 200 cow trailer to a 1200 horizon eater with pretty much everything in between.

So what if you need to tailor them a bit? That is what makes it fun. Yet there is thread after thread of people fretting about the Japanese not giving us the perfect 450 bike. Take the 690, it hardly weighs more than a Japanese 250 dual sport and less than a DRZ400. It will go as far as you want. Since it weighs less than this unicorn of a WR450R would anyway I would argue that it IS a midsized dual sport.

I have 2 690s - an SMC and an EnduroR. They have both been excellent bikes and I love riding them. I have the Enduro set up for long-haul travel. The investment for the bike and setting it up for it's mission was quite substantial. The bike in general and the motor in particular are overkill (really fun, but overkill nonetheless). If the bike I described in the original post would have been available from the "big 4", BMW or KTM, I would have bought it. I'm precluding Husky only because of the very limited dealer network. The only (minor) downside with the 690 is the short lock-to-lock of the steering - makes it challenging for tighter trails.

I bought the 400EXC primarily for local woods / single track riding. Over the years, I've bought an extra set of wheels w/ a cush hub & D606s, an HT Oil Cooler and a more comfy seat to better accomodate weekend dualsport rides so that I won't need to trailer it. Once the ti intake valves start to need more frequent adjusting, I'll probably send off the heads to Kibblewhite engineering for steel intake valve replacements. My bigger point is that it is quite expensive to transform an EXC, XCW or TE in to a more "universal" dualsport capable of a multi-day roadtrip.

Yes, I've been eyeballin the 350 & 500 EXCs & XCWs. If I were to replace the 400 EXC, the 350 EXC or XCW would be at the top of the shortlist.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:35 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
The 09s are going for about that now.
I know, which makes me want to kick myself in the ass for not buying that ZX6R back then.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:37 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by mtntrails View Post
I have an older tagged 400 EXC that I dearly love, but it's not a bike that I would take on an extended road trip.
True, but then plenty of dual sport owners don't WANT to do extended road trips.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:40 AM   #90
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And not everyone is short.
Also, not everyone that is short has a the psychological need to flat foot on a bike
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