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Old 05-19-2013, 05:22 PM   #136
minkyhead
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i dont know how to get it to appear
i did mention the frame looks like a work of art ...


but heres a video of the new frame of the bike

it does look great in the flesh so to speak

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p0GTHPZ598
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:42 AM   #137
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Just read something that might be encouraging for those of us caring about more gear spread. In TBM (trailbike magazine) issue #208 they are doing a story on Simon Pavey's Dakar bikes. His last bike was a Husky TE449 and the artlcle talked about how most of his bike were pretty much stock as he had a pretty low budget.

From page 61 it says,

Quote:
He [Simon] views the 449 as a natural progression from the 650X and the GS before it. After all it is, as he says, 'a G450X with a few tweaks and a six-spead box.
I could get real excited about a G450X with:
- increased oil capacity
- a 6 speed tranny (at least with the possibility out there)
- better rear shock
- set up in that sexy looking package!

Seriously I think this is the 2nd coolest looking bike out there! (Though I claim to not give a rip about looks, somehow I'm drawn to the 660 terere as the coolest looking bike despite the specs looking pretty bad compared to my 690!)
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:09 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickypanecatyl View Post
Just read something that might be encouraging for those of us caring about more gear spread. In TBM (trailbike magazine) issue #208 they are doing a story on Simon Pavey's Dakar bikes. His last bike was a Husky TE449 and the artlcle talked about how most of his bike were pretty much stock as he had a pretty low budget.

From page 61 it says,



I could get real excited about a G450X with:
- increased oil capacity
- a 6 speed tranny (at least with the possibility out there)
- better rear shock
- set up in that sexy looking package!

Seriously I think this is the 2nd coolest looking bike out there! (Though I claim to not give a rip about looks, somehow I'm drawn to the 660 terere as the coolest looking bike despite the specs looking pretty bad compared to my 690!)
It is not just about the number of gears, it is about gear spacing and gear spread. It is also about matching individual gear ratios to the torque curve of the motor. You shouldn't expect the same ratios from a 250 to a 450 to a 650.

The BMW 5-speed in their 650's (X-Challenge/X-Country/X-Moto) have a moderately wide set of ratios (a ratio of 3.27 between 1st & 5th), while the Husky TE449/511 have the narrowest transmission made in the last 15 years (2.49 between 1st & 6th).

The BMW 650's were geared as dual sports, while the TE449/511 are geared as enduro race bikes. Different gears for different torque curves and riding styles. I wouldn't want a narrow racing transmission in a long-distance Adventure bike, regardless of how many gears it has.

The traditional response to putting a 6th gear in a BMW F650GS (or a DR650 or a DR-Z400) is that the transmission case isn't wide enough to just add a gear, so each gear would have to be thinner - hence more fragile, and the transmission would be too weak. An entire re-design of the bottom end and cases is required - which is too expensive. You might as well just design a new motor. Hence, the continuation of 5-speeds in the above mentioned bikes.

The BMW G450X has a 5-speed transmission with ratios of: 1st 2.46:1 / 2nd 1.71:1 / 3rd 1.35:1 / 4th 1.04:1 / 5th 0.88:1 - or a ratio between 1st and 5th of 2.80. This is closer to that of a TE449 than an X-Challenge. However this range, if not the specific ratios, is similar to that of a KLR650 (2.86) and wider than a stock DR-Z400E (2.65).

[ref: KTM 350-EXCF 2.97; KTM 500-EXCF 3.18; Yamaha WR250R 3.36; Husky TE610/630 3.40]

If the CCM 450 uses the same primary ratio (I couldn't find the G450X spec at short notice) and 1st thru 5th gears as the G450X, this transmission will be narrower than I would prefer. However, they could very well change gear ratios to come closer to a dual-sport range, which would better suit MY needs. Whether or not YOU are happy in the end will depend on how YOU want to ride the bike.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:35 AM   #139
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Ahh... I misunderstood the article. I thought that Simon had added an additional gear to the otherwise stock TE449 engine. So the TE449 comes with 6 speeds stock? And with a closer overall spread than the G450X?

Sounds like the KTM690; I had the 5 speed LC4 and was so excited they added another gear on the 690. But the reality was the spread is closer on the 690's 6 gears than the older LC4's 5 gears.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:37 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryphon12 View Post
It is not just about the number of gears, it is about gear spacing and gear spread. It is also about matching individual gear ratios to the torque curve of the motor. You shouldn't expect the same ratios from a 250 to a 450 to a 650.

The BMW 5-speed in their 650's (X-Challenge/X-Country/X-Moto) have a moderately wide set of ratios (a ratio of 3.27 between 1st & 5th), while the Husky TE449/511 have the narrowest transmission made in the last 15 years (2.49 between 1st & 6th).

The BMW 650's were geared as dual sports, while the TE449/511 are geared as enduro race bikes. Different gears for different torque curves and riding styles. I wouldn't want a narrow racing transmission in a long-distance Adventure bike, regardless of how many gears it has.

The traditional response to putting a 6th gear in a BMW F650GS (or a DR650 or a DR-Z400) is that the transmission case isn't wide enough to just add a gear, so each gear would have to be thinner - hence more fragile, and the transmission would be too weak. An entire re-design of the bottom end and cases is required - which is too expensive. You might as well just design a new motor. Hence, the continuation of 5-speeds in the above mentioned bikes.

The BMW G450X has a 5-speed transmission with ratios of: 1st 2.46:1 / 2nd 1.71:1 / 3rd 1.35:1 / 4th 1.04:1 / 5th 0.88:1 - or a ratio between 1st and 5th of 2.80. This is closer to that of a TE449 than an X-Challenge. However this range, if not the specific ratios, is similar to that of a KLR650 (2.86) and wider than a stock DR-Z400E (2.65).

[ref: KTM 350-EXCF 2.97; KTM 500-EXCF 3.18; Yamaha WR250R 3.36; Husky TE610/630 3.40]

If the CCM 450 uses the same primary ratio (I couldn't find the G450X spec at short notice) and 1st thru 5th gears as the G450X, this transmission will be narrower than I would prefer. However, they could very well change gear ratios to come closer to a dual-sport range, which would better suit MY needs. Whether or not YOU are happy in the end will depend on how YOU want to ride the bike.
That was one of the best nerdy replys I have ever read, you sir are a class act. keep it coming.
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Old 05-22-2013, 11:07 PM   #141
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I think the size of CCM has some advantages.

Thinking back to when the 690 enduro was brand new, I excitedly bought it the first week it was out. Many of us on the megathread were disappointed with the tight gearing. I can't remember who but one of the inmates got a quote from a shop for a complete new set of gears - only problem was he needed 20 of us to commit to $1,500 or so to make it happen. Less money the more committed.

Even at that steep price, have a proper wide ratio tranny was important enough that we would have gone thru with it if we all could have agreed on the ratio.

The DR400 is of course far more popular than the 690 and I noticed recently someone finally made a wider gear set for it but the price was much lower... closer to $600 US if I'm not mistaken.

So my thought on the size of a company like CCM is that for one single person, making a new gear set would be astronomically expensive. For a huge company like BMW or KTM there's too much inertia in their plans.
But CCM, if they knew a large portion of potential buyers seriously valued this could easily beat a run of 20 but aren't so big like KTM.
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Old 05-22-2013, 11:19 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickypanecatyl View Post
So my thought on the size of a company like CCM is that for one single person, making a new gear set would be astronomically expensive. For a huge company like BMW or KTM there's too much inertia in their plans.
But CCM, if they knew a large portion of potential buyers seriously valued this could easily beat a run of 20 but aren't so big like KTM.
Wouldn't this be nice. In my mind it depends on two things: What are the designers objectives for the bike? (what are the design parameters?), and does CCM listen to their (potential) customers?

Remember, CCM is based in Europe, where the tunnel vision is always about what are considered to be "short" distances to those of us in the US, Africa, Asia, and Australia.

As I said in a very early post on this thread, a narrow 5-speed is functionally dead on arrival for me, both as a US resident and as a potential long(er) distance ADV rider. [Difficulty in changing the counter-shaft sprocket "on the trail" will also kill this bike for me. Anything more than 10 minutes is too much.]
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:53 AM   #143
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Very keen on this bike, I think it would suit my needs really well now my XC has been written off. For info I just spoke to CCM and they say they are expecting the bike to come off the production line in September. They still have no distributers for Australia but are looking into it and will keep me updated.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:24 AM   #144
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I got this email a few days ago.

You can sign up to be on their email list for updates and stuff. If you guys are really serious about letting them know what you want. Email and tell them. I'm letting them know that I want this bike in America. I think most of us following this thread are Americans in fact.

sales@ccm-motorcycles.net
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Old 05-23-2013, 12:54 PM   #145
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the final gear ratio isnt known to me yet

th published top speed is 90mph 145kmtrs p hour

which suggests to me this will not be different from the bmw

playing with the gear comander site the stock bmw set up
with a 15/45 sprockets will be spinning at 5600 revs at 65mph
with a rev limit of 8000 that seems a reasonable place to work the engine ....

.. as for long distance .. its up to the individual .im quite happy running up to 70mph on my currant thumpers and am not really interested in going any faster my last long trip was 6500 miles and 70 was my top speed on the spanish toll roads and english motorways i still hit maroc in two riding days s around 950 miles total

on me xt660 and klr i try not to work them over 5000 revs on a7500 limit ....a good one third from the redline seems to work fine for them so will apply the same logic to the ccm ..i suspect there may a bit more fun to be had from revvin that motor harder
but ill apply a bit of dicipline on the long haul


i guess it may be different in the u/s and i totally understand that ..the distances are huge and the need for big superslab miles will be a big consideration .. how about a victory vision with a ccm in the backbox ..i reackon it may fit in

im really not bothered at all ill sit at 60 mph and watch the world go by use the back roads and have the odd little play here and there
its around 1000 miles to north afica and then i rarly go over 50mph ..spend most of my time on the trails and little mountain roads some days not gettin much above 30mph on carty tracks top speed doesnt interst me ..it not why i want the bike..im happy to take the trade off on the tarmack ..for the ability off the beaten track ..

i will be surprised if the ccm is antwhere near as good on the superslab as my thumpers but i tend to spend 75percent of my time off road ..and the big bikes are a real handfull for me so the bias of the bike to off road suits me better









i think if you want to spend prolonged time over 70mph the ccm really should not be the bike you should choose ..
a 650 motor would suit better and probably a f800gs better still ..big big road miles would not make any sense i dont think


on the sprocket point ..its reackoned twenty mins to do the job
so that means the first time it will be a hour ...
but if your bike has a big 32ml nut on it with a folded tab ..you may not even be able to get the thing off without a breaker bar ..
at least its just a retaining bolt set up ala the old xrs so when push comes to shove may be easier for a sole rider to deal with
as the big drive sprocket nuts can be tight sons of bitches .. and near impossible to get off without heavy artilery tools

i was lucky last time istripped 5 teeth on the front sprocket but managed to limp in a 100 miles but if it stopped driving i wouldnt have got it off

i picked this up from jezza on the 450 site ...thank you


1: Undo rear axle nut 30mm socket fits I believe, undo the chain adjustment bolts, 13mm spanner, Remove link from chain and remove chain.
2: Now slide rear axle out and remove rear wheel.
3: Remove the black plastic cap from the RH side of frame where the swingarm pivot is, you will then see a bearing and 22mm Bolt head that is the swingarm shaft.
4: Slacken the hex head bolts that clamp the swingarm shaft, 2x 6mm and 1x 8mm from memory
5: You need to undo this 22mm swingarm shaft while holding the LH side swingarm bearing sleeve, (stainless steel thingy with 2 small holes) this is the trickiest part.
6: Once the swingarm shaft is completely undone, gently tap the 22mm swingarm shaft bolt head from the RH side, this will push out the stainless steel bearing sleeve that is on the left side so you can remove it also.
7: Once the swingarm shaft and bearing sleeve are removed completely, lift the complete swingarm with shock etc still attached just out of where it normally sits and rest it against the frame, (hard to explain, but the round edge of the swingarm will be resting on the frame to allow access to the front sprocket)
8: Undo the 2 8mm sprocket retaining bolts, turn the retaining plate until it slides off the spline, then slide the sprocket off the spline.


Easy as that, doesn't take long at all, hardest part is undoing the swingarm shaft while holding the bearing sleeve. When refitting the swingarm only tension to 8NM, not very tight at all. But you save lots of time by not undoing the rear Ohlins shock at all, just leave it all connected and rest the swingarm against the frame while changing sprockets.






me mate was bit more unfortunate ,, went off piste into a beanfeild
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:20 PM   #146
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MPG is the only reason why I want the wider ratio gearbox. I'm an American and have to drive 500 plus miles to get to interesting terrain. The roads are straight and long. I like being about to "lug" it at 70-75 mph. I don't want it to be screaming at this speed.
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:18 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Fishfund View Post
MPG is the only reason why I want the wider ratio gearbox. I'm an American and have to drive 500 plus miles to get to interesting terrain. The roads are straight and long. I like being about to "lug" it at 70-75 mph. I don't want it to be screaming at this speed.
as far as i can tell its 22kms per litre which is 62 mpg impeirial gallons 4.54 litres to a gallon

so 54 mpg us ish

have a look at the gearing comander site

http://www.gearingcommander.com/base/gc_main.htm

im just presuming its the same ratios as the g450x though
i dont think you will be able to lug at 75mph but i think 70mph is feasable ..its a unknown at the moment

ultimatly i think smaller engine will equal more revs ..or less speed im afraid

15/45 sprockets come ot at 6084 revs at 70mph
a drz with the same gearing
would be 6768 revs at 70mph by comparason
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:30 PM   #148
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Remember, CCM is based in Europe, where the tunnel vision is always about what are considered to be "short" distances to those of us in the US, Africa, Asia, and Australia.
I disagre with that completely. The entire adventure biking thing is a European thing. The beginnings of it, in the 80s with the BMW R80G/S, the 3AJ Tenere, The Africa Twin, Super Tenere ... all designed and built for the European market - specifically for travel in Africa. All included large fuel tanks and range and durability as key features. When Yamaha re-entered the adventure market a few years back, they designed, built and launched the 660 Tenere ... in Europe. For the European market. It has a 22 litre tank.

The only bike adventure bike designed for or built in the USA or Australia is the Buell XB12 Uly with its 16.5 litre tank.

If you go adventuring around the developing world, about 70+% of the non local people on bikes you will meet are from Europe - in some parts, like Africa or Mongolia or the stans, its more like 95% European.

Europe is the home of adventure biking! If anything, the European market gets the decent sized fuel tank thing far more than the US market. After all, a European bike buyer is far more likely to head off into the 3rd world (Africa or Eurasia) with his new bike - or at the very least, he will not buy an adventure bike that is incapable of fulfilling that ambition. That doesnt mean European buyers are necessarily as picky as US buyers about wide ratio boxes tho. See my recommendations below ...

Regarding this bike, I believe RallyRaidProducts UK (KTM Mitch) who are making the tanks, are also making larger tanks for the rally version of the bike, that will be an option. If they plan to race it in the Dakar, and they say they do, then they will be planning for about 30 litres capacity.

I also would love a wide ratio box. Especially since changing the front sprocket isnt going to be a 2 minute process. I have one of the quite wide 3.27:1 5 speed boxes on the BMWx bikes and still feel there is room for a 6th gear there, so that one front sprocket does it all (or even keep it 5 speed but widen it even more to get an overall spread of about 3.5:1). From technical single track to all day long 80+ mph motorway cruising. I think unless potential buyers hassle CCM about that, then it wont happen.

I reckon that if you are in the US, you need to let them know that there is a market for them in the US, cause as stated earlier, they have no distributor in the US

I also reckon that everyone who enquires about this bike needs to stress to CCM that a different very wide set of gear ratios (ideally delivering a spread of 3.5:1) is an essential part of the "to buy or not to buy" process. If they get mass hassled by potential customers on that issue - and if they understand many people like the bike buy wont buy it without those ratios, they should be able to get Kymco to whip up another set of gears pretty cheaply.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:54 PM   #149
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I'd really like to see bikes starting to incorporate LED lighting or, at a minimum, HIDs.
That would be very expensive to develop for a low production run of headlights. Unless you could buy something already tested and approved and morph it into the fairing.

A 35w HID conversion probably wont be too hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by live2ridetahoe View Post
, what is the suspension travel? They don't mention it. I"m guessing somewhere around 240mm from the look of it. I'd like to see 300mm
Looking at where the end of the upper fork tubes cross the wheel, and therefore how much chrome is exposed, its looks to me to be 275-300mm at the front. (compare it with a 300mm KTM EXC fork). You would imagine it would be the same or very similar at the back. Thats a lot more than a 690.
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Old 05-24-2013, 07:46 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Colebatch View Post
I also would love a wide ratio box. Especially since changing the front sprocket isnt going to be a 2 minute process. I have one of the quite wide 3.27:1 5 speed boxes on the BMWx bikes and still feel there is room for a 6th gear there, so that one front sprocket does it all (or even keep it 5 speed but widen it even more to get an overall spread of about 3.5:1). From technical single track to all day long 80+ mph motorway cruising. I think unless potential buyers hassle CCM about that, then it wont happen.


I also reckon that everyone who enquires about this bike needs to stress to CCM that a different very wide set of gear ratios (ideally delivering a spread of 3.5:1) is an essential part of the "to buy or not to buy" process. If they get mass hassled by potential customers on that issue - and if they understand many people like the bike buy wont buy it without those ratios, they should be able to get Kymco to whip up another set of gears pretty cheaply.

I also also would love a wide ratio box! Most serious adventure riders can relate to needing to cruise all day at 80+ AND crawl thru terrain at a snail's pace that may not even have been meant to be ridden thru!

A wide box is also important for the tens of thousands of adventurous Asian riders here who only have one vehicle. They commute with it during the week, and crawl thru the jungles, and go on long freeway road trips on weekends and holidays with the same bike.

I wrote CCM a letter re using a wide ratio box and they passed it to Austin Chew the director for consideration. I get the feeling they can make a wide ratio box and are open to doing it IF they realize how many potential customers want it.

Many of you already want it. I realize there are many here that don't see the value of it; many of my American friends for instance have both a GS1200 AND a KTM EXC200 type of bike. When riding with them on the highway we may see some amazing single track and their thought is to come back with the 200 at another time.
That of course is fun... and the closer you were to home when the easier it is to go back and change vehicles. Nothing wrong with that style of riding.
But here I just want to make the case that IF you had a "Adventure Bike" that was happy to cruise back to back days at 80 mph AND crawl thru some nasty terrain to get to some other really fun terrain that that opens up a whole new exciting kind of riding if you've never done that before.
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