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Old 05-26-2013, 03:22 AM   #181
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Old 05-26-2013, 04:16 AM   #182
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I think you need to ride one of these kymco 450 bikes and see what the sweet spot "all day" cruise rpm is for you. Its going to fall between 4000-6000 rpm but will be different for each person.

Pick a speed you would like on the tarmac and gear the sprockets to that RPM and road speed. If its then geared too tall for rock gardens, get an auto clutch for it.

If there are no auto clutches offered it might be easier to get Rekluse to develop one than getting Kymco to modify things. Not sure if auto clutch is possible on this weird motor, though.....


I had an xc500 husky bike. it was just designed for open desert type terrain and did fine in the mountains
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Old 05-26-2013, 09:59 AM   #183
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I just sent an email I Austin Clews who is the CEO/head of CCM's email. I just let him know who I am and how much I would like a really wide gear spread and to please bring the bike to America. I urge anyone else who thinks the same to do this as well before the bike design is set in stone.

Luke
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Old 05-26-2013, 10:55 AM   #184
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ccm

I went ahead and emailed him also, can't hurt.
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Old 05-26-2013, 05:50 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colebatch View Post
Its possible ... a 450 with a wide 5 speed box, sitting at 100 mph all day...

But it won't then do single track. You guys are drunk on Dakar RACE BIKES! They run high rpm, high speed, period. Then that night, they are maintained by professional mechanics, to race again the next day. These are NOT Adv bikes - with respect to maintenance or gearing.
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Old 05-26-2013, 06:09 PM   #186
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I will respectfully disagree with your post.

Firstly, there is a lot more than just high RPM and high speed in Dakar.

Secondly, only the top bikes get worked on every night by trained mechanics, most might get an oil and filter change.

And NO decent ADV type bike will do single track very well.

And lastly, Rallye bikes can and do make great ADV type bikes according to most guys that I have talked to that have them.

The whole idea behind the CCM is to have a Dakar type bike, a 650 class engine makes a hell of a lot more sense to me if you were to use it as a long distance dirt tourer, but 450 will probably sell well because of the recent Dakar rule changes.

A 450 might be able to be made lighter than a 650, but once you load it up with gear and fuel the weights are much close (% wise), and I would rather have the more relaxed bigger bike just chugging along, than have a 450 screaming.
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:10 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by tHEtREV View Post
I will respectfully disagree with your post.

Firstly, there is a lot more than just high RPM and high speed in Dakar.

Secondly, only the top bikes get worked on every night by trained mechanics, most might get an oil and filter change.

And NO decent ADV type bike will do single track very well.

And lastly, Rallye bikes can and do make great ADV type bikes according to most guys that I have talked to that have them.

The whole idea behind the CCM is to have a Dakar type bike, a 650 class engine makes a hell of a lot more sense to me if you were to use it as a long distance dirt tourer, but 450 will probably sell well because of the recent Dakar rule changes.

A 450 might be able to be made lighter than a 650, but once you load it up with gear and fuel the weights are much close (% wise), and I would rather have the more relaxed bigger bike just chugging along, than have a 450 screaming.
All good points - if you really want to ride from one extreme to the other on the same machine, then there is always going to be a degree of compromise - fortunately most of the time people ride somewhere around the middle, and put up with the compromises as required - what those compromises are depends on what bike you choose, and where your priorities lie?

This thread is rapidly turning into yet another 'mythical perfect bike' thread, rather than discussing the positives of this CCM, everyone is focusing on the negatives?

Perhaps we should direct Haraise and Bill here? - this sounds like just the sort of bike they are after... (sorry)

Jx

ps. I'm not sure that the Factory Dakar bikes that are geared for over 100mph (160kmh) have a particularly low first gear, as their riders don't really need it... the rest of the Dakar field these days tends to top out around 145km to retain a reasonable low set of gears from the MX/Enduro derived engines (that also don't have the outright bhp of the Factory KTM 450s) - it's kind of a moot point anyway as mousses start to melt at anything over 130kmh for a prolonged period of time...
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:20 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryphon12 View Post
But it won't then do single track. You guys are drunk on Dakar RACE BIKES! They run high rpm, high speed, period. Then that night, they are maintained by professional mechanics, to race again the next day. These are NOT Adv bikes - with respect to maintenance or gearing.
I think you underestimate rally bikes.

Heres Marc Coma's 450 rally being backflipped

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUivvXJVOVg
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:48 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTBen View Post
I think you underestimate rally bikes.

Heres Marc Coma's 450 rally being backflipped

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUivvXJVOVg
Great clip! However, the bike doesn't then go on and do 100mph - it is very likely the gearing was changed for that particular trick... I think that is Gryphon's point - you can have either end of the extreme, but not both at the same time?

Jx
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Old 05-27-2013, 03:08 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
This thread is rapidly turning into yet another 'mythical perfect bike' thread, rather than discussing the positives of this CCM, everyone is focusing on the negatives?


Jx
It always seems to go that way.

I said I would prefer a 650 class thumper, but I'm not trying to say I think the CCM should be a 650cc class.

I see it as a good thing that they are going the 450 route because while there are quite a few 250 or 600+ class bikes that fit the bill quite nicely,
there is a big hole in that section of the market for bikes that are/can be made into good ADV bikes.

Just clearing it up so it doesn't sound like I'm one of those people who instantly think a bike is a waste of time because it doesn't meet my needs.
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Old 05-27-2013, 07:00 AM   #191
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JMo, you are right.

One way or another, a light agile adventure bike is a long overdue addition to an adventure bike market oversaturated with a dozen or so varieties of the 250 kg "gravel goldwings".
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Old 05-27-2013, 08:01 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
Don't forget that the BMW/Speedbrain G450 bikes performed perfectly well* in the Dakar, which to be honest is a pretty good test of the sort of conditions a lightweight 'Adventure' bike is going to need to perform in - 8000+kms in two weeks, long road liaisons, altitude, heat, cold, desert, mountains, mud etc etc etc.

Jx

*I say perfectly well, I still have concerns about the crank-mounted clutch, but that is another tangent...
The speedbrain bikes had a custom 6 speed box in them.
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:33 AM   #193
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I like the bike. It would be very nice to see a lighter weight ADV bike, long over due. Enough 'gravel goldwings'!
Maybe its more of a regional bike than a long distance machine, but thats okay.
I don't see a smallish company having a whole lot of money for re-tools or R & D. Big R & D breaks small companies.
This bike looks to be VERY small production. I don't think CCM can produce large numbers, what like 1000 or 2500 or 10,000 units??? Those are still small numbers worldwide.
Maybe 50 or 100.
Nice fitment and parts will raise the cost to the consumer. I don't see anyhow, anyway how this bike could come in under Ten grand in the US. It just doesn't happen unless its a DR or XRL (low spec bikes).
And even coming to the US? Lets see... Slim & None.
Sherco or Scorpa or Ossa comes to mind. Better have the cash up front and sitting on the importer/distributors desk.
PARTS??? Hmmm...

I love the bike. Lets see 6 gears. Get past epa and dot LOL.

I could afford to own one, but by the time I would hear about their arrival it would be too late.

Interestingly, Rally Raid does get involved with projects that DO happen!

Did I say I like the bike?
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:57 PM   #194
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This bike looks to be VERY small production. I don't think CCM can produce large numbers, what like 1000 or 2500 or 10,000 units??? Those are still small numbers worldwide.


i wouldnt be expecting them to produce much more than 20 bikes per month on the initial run ..
i guess that could change.with demand ... but as said this bike isnt going to run into the 1000s anytime soon ....im not sure thats their intention anyway ...just my guess of course

it is a smaller market for sure but that could fit perfectly for a smaller firm ...which seems exactly where thay are trying to sit
2 or three hundred bikes a year are not going to stirr up the big guys interest too much ..thta may work to ccms advantage in the longer term
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Old 05-27-2013, 03:06 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
All good points - if you really want to ride from one extreme to the other on the same machine,

Lot's of us want to ride like that JMO! Some enjoy the whole spectrum from trials to flat out dakar racing... others tolerate sections they don't enjoy as well to get to the good stuff on the other side.
I pointed out earlier, there is a much larger, growing demographic of Asians with one vehicle they commute to work on during the week and want to have all the fun they can with it on the weekends. The off road biased ones are looking for machines with similar stats to the adventure bike.

In factthen there is always going to be a degree of compromise - fortunately most of the time people ride somewhere around the middle, and put up with the compromises as required - what those compromises are depends on what bike you choose, and where your priorities lie?

This thread is about proposing

This thread is rapidly turning into yet another 'mythical perfect bike' thread, rather than discussing the positives of this CCM, everyone is focusing on the negatives?
Actually CCM is interested in this thread and this thread is about showing there are people who realize the difficulty involved in changing the gearbox BUT a company doing just that would make the difference they needed to jump on it.

It's not a mythical, impossible concept to produce a lightweight adventure bike with wide transmission; it's extremely practical and doable, and based on this thread, CCM may actually put the effort in to do just that!

A single owner could get the gears down by himself though he might have to pay 10 grand+. 20 guys could go in together and probably get new gear sets for 1,500 a piece.
OR CCM could have Kymco make them like this from the factory... as they already have the CAD drawings as Walter pointed out and there numbers would be much higher than 20, it might only end up costing a couple hundred extra per bike. And while Kymco was doing it, they could tune engine to run more optimally with the wide box.

Over and over again I meet guys with DR400's, XR650R's, KTM690's who either:
1.) Wish they had a wider box
2.) Have gotten used to swapping sprockets all the time
3.) Just don't enertain the idea of either the lower or higher speed of riding as it's too much of a pain.

Wouldn't it rock if a bike other than the 250cc category came like that?
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