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Old 05-28-2013, 12:13 AM   #196
JMo (& piglet)
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Originally Posted by StevenD View Post
The speedbrain bikes had a custom 6 speed box in them.
Hi Steve - I wasn't aware the initial year G450X bikes had the six speed too, I defer to your info - but yes, Speedbrain's development ultimately led to the 'Husqvarna' version of that engine (together with better oil routing and other internal mods), however that six speed is still close ratio as others have said above?

Jx
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:18 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Maxacceleration View Post
I love the bike. Lets see 6 gears. Get past epa and dot LOL.
I don't think the EPA thing would be too much of a problem - the G450X was sold as street-legal the US wasn't it? The engine/emissions is going to be exactly the same - in fact it may be even better as I imagine the exhaust on the CCM is going to have to comply with Euro4 emissions rules...

I think the real question is if CCM can get distribution and feel the US market [for this particularly model] is big enough to warrant the COST of putting it through all the testing?

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Old 05-28-2013, 01:08 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by rickypanecatyl View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet)
All good points - if you really want to ride from one extreme to the other on the same machine,
Lot's of us want to ride like that JMO! Some enjoy the whole spectrum from trials to flat out dakar racing... others tolerate sections they don't enjoy as well to get to the good stuff on the other side.
I pointed out earlier, there is a much larger, growing demographic of Asians with one vehicle they commute to work on during the week and want to have all the fun they can with it on the weekends. The off road biased ones are looking for machines with similar stats to the adventure bike.
I agree, but I think you missed my point Ricky - I was simply echoing what other people have said on here that an 'Adventure' style bike is never going to be perfect at either end of the extremes - and by that I mean real extremes - riding the Rubicon or Pritchett Canyon one day, then doing 100mph for a prolonged period on the way home...

As you say, people enjoy the whole spectrum for riding from trials to flat-out Dakar racing... as I do, but I have specific bikes for those two very different disciplines - noone is going to try the Dakar on a Montesa Cota, and noone is going to take a 450RFR on the Rubicon?

I certainly agree with you that there is certainly a place for a lighter-weight Adventure/dual-sport style bike - one that is less of a compromise at either end of the extremes - but an 'Adventure' bike is still going to be a compromise - by its nature it is a 'do it all' machine - that's all I was saying...

Ultimately a bike with the ergonomics for comfort during extended on-road riding (ie bar/seat/peg relationship), and sufficient ground clearance/suspension travel for high-speed off-road work is going to be a liability in more trials terrain, never mind the bulk of a larger tank and fairing etc. I don't believe it is physically possible to have a bike that is really good in genuine trials type terrain and also able to cruise at 100mph - hell, there are very few single cylinder engines at all that are happy at those sort of speeds, let alone one with only 450ccs!

But you're right, this new CCM is getting closer for the majority of dual-sport riders - the seat isn't stupidly high, there is plenty of suspension travel & ground clearance, the weight is little more than an Enduro with a big tank, and the CCM is comparatively slim and with a lower centre of gravity having he majority of the fuel under the seat...

The only limitation it seems is going to be what is currently people's perception of the engine/gearing limitations for extended periods of [higher speed] road work- and I don't Believe CCM are really in a position to do anything radical about that.

I think until this bike gets into the hands of end users, and they can actually report how well the engine configuration handles it's designated role, we shouldn't write it off just because of a few gear ratios...

The reality is most of the time on a dual-sport bike like this (be it a 250 or 650cc), you tend not to slog up the freeways, but ride the more scenic routes (which are closer to the trails) at anything between 50-70mph - this engine will have a enough squirt to hit 85+ should you need to overtake anyone, and the bike will remain nimble enough for more technical off-road terrain than you might want to tackle on a similarly prepared 650cc dual-sport?

I just want to see one, and ride one!

Jx
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:25 PM   #199
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quote /The reality is most of the time on a dual-sport bike like this (be it a 250 or 650cc), you tend not to slog up the freeways, but ride the more scenic routes (which are closer to the trails) at anything between 50-70mph - this engine will have a enough squirt to hit 85+ should you need to overtake anyone, and the bike will remain nimble enough for more technical off-road terrain than you might want to tackle on a similarly prepared 650cc dual-sport? quote

its nice to hear a expert rider having a more positive take on the bike .it pretty much sums up why i want one
sounds so much better when i read it like that

with respect ...i think some of the expert riders ..advanced off roaders hard adventures ..whatever it is .... may be hoping for a little too much too soon and be dissapointed in the top speed and flexability of the bike

a lot of guys and girls dont wont or cant ride anywhere near that level ... but just want somthing more capable and light to help them through ..to be fair a lot of ordinary riders still want a quility bike to make them as good as they can hope to be ..and more comfortable in the tough stuff ..and indeed more comfortable on the road too . a lot of guys and gals have a good idea whats hot and whats not in their off road thoughts /..i reacon the ccm has more hots than nots

i know there is a huge interest in the bike from ordinary .. joe bloggs ..and bill smith ..and sally next door that ride more modestly ..never do enduros or hare and hounds .. they just enjoy going off road
a 70mph practical road speed will not suit a fair few people ..but theres pleanty roaming around to meets ..ahemm ..riding on 50/ 50 tyres
that 70 does very nicly thank you ? the thought of doing 90mph on mitus c02s .644s or even e09 dakars doesnt exactly have me lining up first in the queue even if the noise doesnt deafen me first ..so there are some pracitcal aspects that dont lend to high speed all the time .. fuel grip tyre wear rider fatuege and noise ...
sure you could wear conities or k60s [and pray it doesnt rain ] but then ..your gaining on the road and roosting in the mud ....

i think it will be a very exciting bike for a ordinary joe ..maby a dissapointment for a racer .or high level adventurer
but for mere mortals its going to be pretty sprightly with more off road speed that most will ever need .
adventure bike comfort on the way ..better than a drz when you get there .. adv bike comfort when your done
im more interested in how it lugs in 2nd tha how fast it goes on tar ..what gearing i can get away with is my main concern ..ill just have to suck that one and see ..as high as possible of course


. but even modest riders arnt imune from a bit of wheelspin fun here and there ..the bike will be well better than most riders .. but that never stopped anyone riding a fireblade or wanting one

if they do the dakar ..you can see a racing or rally version coming out for the expert racers ..probably increasing fuel capacity to 30 odd litres.. akraprovics plug in ..honed internals ....oil cooler .. 65 hp ..wide 6 speed box...... hydraulic recluse clutch[is it possible? so on ...

..the works .... and tearing out as much of the comfort stuff as they can to keep the weight down ...
limited addition maby but with a racing dna i reacon it could happen.. everyone has their own slice of the same cake ??
but the price ??
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:24 PM   #200
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Wouldn't Kymco dealers be a logical choice since the engine is made by them? Not to mention it will not compete with any kymco product sold in the USA, since they are all scooters here.
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:16 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
I agree, but I think you missed my point Ricky - I was simply echoing what other people have said on here that an 'Adventure' style bike is never going to be perfect at either end of the extremes -
Jenny we don't disagree on that! :) But perhaps you are not hearing what I'm saying. Here are my main points:

1. CCM has given us reason to believe that if enough of us want it/value it, they are considering putting a wider 6 speed gear box in. It may raise the cost some to do that - but it would be nothing close to what it would cost the aftermarket to do that.

2. I, Walter and others are trying to see who else values a wider 6 speed box.

3. Having a wider 6 speed box will not make it "a dakar racer"... it makes it a better "all around bike"... able to do more things well!

It's my personal opinion that while not all customers would benefit from having a wider range transmission it wouldn't hurt anyone. Ecspecially because it would be going from 5 speeds to 6 speeds. But for many of us, it would make it far more versatile!
Close gear ratios are good for 0-60mph drag races, close competition but this bike as is, is not a highly competitive machine.

Everyone already knows adventure, do it all bikes are "compromises". What we are saying here, is why piss away an opportunity to make it "less of a compromise" if a manufacturer is open to making a adventure bike better?
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:33 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
I agree, but I think you missed my point Ricky - I was simply echoing what other people have said on here that an 'Adventure' style bike is never going to be perfect at either end of the extremes - and by that I mean real extremes - riding the Rubicon or Pritchett Canyon one day, then doing 100mph for a prolonged period on the way home...

As you say, people enjoy the whole spectrum for riding from trials to flat-out Dakar racing... as I do, but I have specific bikes for those two very different disciplines - noone is going to try the Dakar on a Montesa Cota, and noone is going to take a 450RFR on the Rubicon?

FWIW I did the rubicon on a 690R with fully loaded panniers! To be honest, I wasn't really having fun and as a distance runner, I've no doubt I could've run it faster.
Different bikes for different disciplines doesn't fit in the midst of a long adventure though! Having a wide speed CCM adventure bike wouldn't make it the ultimate rubicon bike; BUT it would do better on the rubicon than if it had the narrow 5 speed box and both were set up to ride freeway speeds at lower rpms.

To clarify, I don't think the 450X engine is capable of BOTH being able to run for prolonged periods at 100mph and be reliable. I never thru out the figure of 100mph... I said 80mph all day. Perhaps to be fair that is asking a lot of 450cc and I should have said 75-80mph all day. (100 mph prolonged is a HUGE jump from there I don't think anyone is expecting of THIS bike!)

My KLX 351cc engine can be a reality check measuring point. It's a dated, 250cc engine with a 351cc aftermarket big bore kit. I've got 90,000+ KM on the whole engine; 50K+ on the 351cc big bore. I do not baby it; change oil 8-10K km. It can easily run 70 mph all day, back to back days.

With that as a reference, I'm positive a newer 450cc engine could be tuned to run reliably 75 and maybe even 80 mph all day long.

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Old 05-29-2013, 12:45 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by rickypanecatyl View Post
Jenny we don't disagree on that! :) But perhaps you are not hearing what I'm saying. Here are my main points:

1. CCM has given us reason to believe that if enough of us want it/value it, they are considering putting a wider 6 speed gear box in. It may raise the cost some to do that - but it would be nothing close to what it would cost the aftermarket to do that.

2. I, Walter and others are trying to see who else values a wider 6 speed box.

3. Having a wider 6 speed box will not make it "a dakar racer"... it makes it a better "all around bike"... able to do more things well!

It's my personal opinion that while not all customers would benefit from having a wider range transmission it wouldn't hurt anyone. Ecspecially because it would be going from 5 speeds to 6 speeds. But for many of us, it would make it far more versatile!
Close gear ratios are good for 0-60mph drag races, close competition but this bike as is, is not a highly competitive machine.

Everyone already knows adventure, do it all bikes are "compromises". What we are saying here, is why piss away an opportunity to make it "less of a compromise" if a manufacturer is open to making a adventure bike better?
Hi Ricky - I apologise if I gave the impression I didn't think it was important - I totally get what you are saying and there is no doubt that IF a wide-ratio gearbox was able to be specified at the point of manufacture, then it really would be the icing on the cake!

I know we both agree that this bike is already a huge step forward in expanding where those compromises are compared to what is currently on the market - my concern is simply that CCM are a very small assembly/manufacturer, who are buying engines in, and I fear that they will be limited as to what the can offer, certainly initially at least.

All I was offering was a counter-point so that people don't write this bike off based on paper specification as to how good or not it is going to be in the real world - or are disappointed if a revised gearbox is not a feasible proposition at this late production stage - the first production bikes are due to ship in September, and as far as I am aware, noone has actually developed a wide-ratio set of gears and tested it in this engine - that could throw up issues that may or may not have already been considered by Speedbrain for example?

As you say, if it were possible, then it really would make this very close to that mythical 'perfect' all-terrain bike that we crave on here!

Jx
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Old 05-29-2013, 01:15 AM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickypanecatyl View Post
FWIW I did the rubicon on a 690R with fully loaded panniers! To be honest, I wasn't really having fun and as a distance runner, I've no doubt I could've run it faster.
Different bikes for different disciplines doesn't fit in the midst of a long adventure though! Having a wide speed CCM adventure bike wouldn't make it the ultimate rubicon bike; BUT it would do better on the rubicon than if it had the narrow 5 speed box and both were set up to ride freeway speeds at lower rpms.

To clarify, I don't think the 450X engine is capable of BOTH being able to run for prolonged periods at 100mph and be reliable. I never thru out the figure of 100mph... I said 80mph all day. Perhaps to be fair that is asking a lot of 450cc and I should have said 75-80mph all day. (100 mph prolonged is a HUGE jump from there I don't think anyone is expecting of THIS bike!)

My KLX 351cc engine can be a reality check measuring point. It's a dated, 250cc engine with a 351cc aftermarket big bore kit. I've got 90,000+ KM on the whole engine; 50K+ on the 351cc big bore. I do not baby it; change oil 8-10K km. It can easily run 70 mph all day, back to back days.

With that as a reference, I'm positive a newer 450cc engine could be tuned to run reliably 75 and maybe even 80 mph all day long.
Hee hee - I bow to your prowess on the Rubicon, and feel your pain!

As I'm sure you realise my reference to 100mph was not in direct reply to you, just that it seems to the 'magic number' a lot of people ask for - but realistically as you suggest, what we would like is the ability to cruise at freeway speeds where necessary without unduly stressing the engine.

I'm sure it's possible with current engine technology, and like many here am looking forward to the day Yamaha bring out a 450cc version of their WR250R engine - you would think that with the drive for packaging and fuel economy these days, that manufacturers ought to consider the 450cc class the 'new' 650cc class - in much the same way as car manufacturers have eeked fantastic performance, economy and reliability our of sub two-litre car engines in recent years?

The problem as I see it has already been alluded to on this thread - that the majority of the world [and thus the customer base] are happy* to chugg around on 250cc or less machines (*or perhaps more accurately forced to through cost/economy or licensing regulations) - while the longer distance/everyday crowd follow the old muscle-car mantra that 'there ain't no substitute for cubes' - and certainly that tends to be the case if you want a relaxed and torquey bike for big mileage on the highway.

A lightweight and capable Adventure bike is a niche within a niche (and quite possibly within a third niche too!) - as with the SUV market, the majority of customers want something that sort of looks like it will do the business, but they (and the manufacturers) know that cost and everyday practically are the deciding factors, and cost of course, and cost.

I fear that is what is holding the manufacturers back from developing the class of bike that we are looking for is the actual commercial incentive - while it is true the Honda are basing a range of bikes around their new 250cc single and 500cc twin engines, both of those engines favor cost and reliability over lightweight and performance... and of course for the majority of the market those bikes are aimed at, that is just fine!

When you are developing and selling machines that only cost a few thousand dollars (compared to volume and price of cars) - every penny is going to count - which is I'm sure is one of the main reasons CCM chose the engine that they did...

I honestly see this bike as paving the way for a new breed of machine, but the revolution won't come until one of the major manufacturers also considers that downsizing the engine capacity (and overall weight) doesn't have a perceived negative effect on marketing?

Jx
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Old 05-29-2013, 01:26 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
Hi Steve - I wasn't aware the initial year G450X bikes had the six speed too, I defer to your info - but yes, Speedbrain's development ultimately led to the 'Husqvarna' version of that engine (together with better oil routing and other internal mods), however that six speed is still close ratio as others have said above?

Jx
Hi Jx,
I think Frans Verhoeven had a custom box (not from the factory) in the Gx from the first year on since testin that bike proved it would bennefit. Can be that is was only in the second year but I think not. Of the ratio's I know nothing. I could Try and ask Frans if he still knows the ratio's.

How the BMW 5 speed and Husq 6 speed compare I dont know, just know that the BMW has a very narrow span for rally style (or adventurous) riding.
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Old 05-29-2013, 06:51 AM   #206
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I dont know if anyone else has had a reply from CCM yet, but I emailed them earlier on today regarding the 6-speed box and this was their response:

'Hi David,

Thank you for your enquiry, the GP450 Adventure bike will come with a 5
speed box as standard but with an optional 6 speed box available.

We do not have an Australian Distributer as yet bit once we do then we
will be in touch, meanwhile we will keep you up to date with current
developments.

Regards
Austin'

Looks like great news and I frankly find it quite amazing that a such a small factory is willing to offer this sort of flexibility if the thats what the customer wants...
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Old 05-29-2013, 08:23 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by DaveyDave View Post
I dont know if anyone else has had a reply from CCM yet, but I emailed them earlier on today regarding the 6-speed box and this was their response:

...Thank you for your enquiry, the GP450 Adventure bike will come with a 5
speed box as standard but with an optional 6 speed box available...

Looks like great news and I frankly find it quite amazing that a such a small factory is willing to offer this sort of flexibility if the thats what the customer wants...
That is very positive news, however, I wonder if they mean the Husqvarna 6-speed production gear cluster (which essentially has the same overall/close ratio's), or they have been able to specify something different... I suspect the former, for now at least...

Jx
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Old 05-29-2013, 08:37 AM   #208
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maybe .... just maybe ....

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Old 05-29-2013, 08:59 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
That is very positive news, however, I wonder if they mean the Husqvarna 6-speed production gear cluster (which essentially has the same overall/close ratio's), or they have been able to specify something different... I suspect the former, for now at least...

Jx
Time will tell. I'm sure they'll update the website when they have more news. If by some happenstance I happen to get news through first I'll let you know. Anyway theres only a few months to go before it rolls off the production line so we shouldn't have to wait too long for an update.
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Old 05-29-2013, 12:49 PM   #210
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I emailed CCM 3-4 days ago and haven't heard from them yet. Strange, but wonderful potential news on the upgradable 6-speeds. Now can we get it to America or will I have to ship one back in a container and deal with importing on my own?
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