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Old 08-01-2013, 11:33 AM   #301
clearandlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie66 View Post
My guess from riding several rally bikes and a few rallies.

The engine will be bullet proof, may feel a bit tame in the larger frame (compared to a yamaha or honda). Cyril at KTM had already said that the 450RR needed some modernization (ie lose some weight). But dont forget 90% of the people rallying do NOT need a competetive bike, they need a rideable reliable bike.

If you are in 70th spot you are NOT in any contention, finishing should be the goal, anyone who blows an engine in 70th spot took the wrong idealogy to the race.

I reckon the thought process here is a great one, most people going to dakar would choose a 450RR, errrrrrrr , a winner if the rider has alien talent otherwise it is the wrong choice. It requires daily love and attention, lots of attention, and as a noveau entrant at dakar you simply do not have that time.

my 2cents

Gooo Jmo
Are there any stats on how many 450RR have spat the dummy? It would be interesting to know how the 450 handles the stress when not pushing for a top 20 finish?

so how many have just gone pop? and what was the cause?

anyone? anyone?
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:24 AM   #302
JMo (& piglet) OP
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A few answers from me (in typically reverse order)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by clearandlock View Post
Are there any stats on how many 450RR have spat the dummy? It would be interesting to know how the 450 handles the stress when not pushing for a top 20 finish?

so how many have just gone pop? and what was the cause?

anyone? anyone?
I think 2013 particularly showed that with careful 'strategy management', the factory 450RR bike can go a Dakar distance on a single engine, even at the sharp(er) end - alleviating many of the initial fears that an MX derived engine would grenade over two weeks of continual racing...

However, I don't think there were many people who didn't take at least one spare engine (€5000), plus any associated specific 450RR service parts, or pay €2000 to KTM for access to the service/spares truck...

Then there is still the issue of actually buying a 450RR in the first place - €30,000 new - and while there are now an increasing number on the secondhand market (for less than €20,000) - if it is an ex race bike it is certainly going to need a full engine rebuild, together with a suspension overhaul and thorough going through/replacement of bearings, seals etc. - that is a LOT more £££s, and not least time... and of course there is still the gamble of shelling out for a spare engine or not.

Therefore, what Rally Raid Products are trying to offer is a genuine budget alternative option for the privateer rider, perhaps someone who intends to ride Malle Moto, or at least compete with minimal service assistance during the rally - where (as Aussie66 suggests), the priority is reliability and low maintenance/spares inventory for the duration of the event.

Jx
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:29 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Farioli View Post
I am really interested how it went?

Thanks!
Unfortunately we have yet to receive the CAD data from Cosworth for their recommended piston crown profile - as soon as we have that John can machine the prototype piston and we can get the engine assembled.

Typical 'summer holiday' timing means there has been a delay in getting the information required.

Rally Raid Products have also been flat out these past few weeks fulfilling orders from their retail product line, which as I'm sure you understand is a priority...

KTMmitch will be along just as soon as we have some significant news on the engine front...

Jx

JMo (& piglet) screwed with this post 08-02-2013 at 03:55 AM
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:51 AM   #304
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Which brings me to the #1 question I'm sure...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tehdutchie View Post
Dakar entry confirmed for Jenny? All quiet....
It was clear by mid June, that we were rapidly running out of time to have this project together in sufficient time for Dakar 2014.

If you've been following this thread from the beginning, you'll know we had hoped to have a running engine early in the new year, and to be able to prove a complete bike competitively in April (at the Hellas Rally in Greece)... We would then be in a position to offer a complete rental package for a sister bike for Dakar 2014 - which was the only realistic way we could begin to cover the assistance costs for taking a team with us - to coincide with the entries opening in May - obviously anyone who was serious about entering the Dakar in 2014 would need to start making decisions about which bike/package they were going to use by then...

Since none of this came to fruition in time, it seriously compromised the time-frame we had envisaged at the beginning of the year.

We could hardly expect anyone to sign up for a 2014 rental package without at least having heard the engine running, never mind having that backed up by endurance testing and ideally at least one finish in a competitive event. I know I wouldn't.

While I have my WR450F from the 2011 event rebuilt and ready to go again, without the LC4-50 and associated service assistance from Rally Raid Products, I am in no financial position to enter the Dakar 2014 as a solo privateer - the title of my original Dakar Dazed thread "Countdown to bankruptcy" proving increasingly accurate...

There would be an outside chance that given enough goodwill and support from those of you who supported me before, I could have scraped together the entry fee for a Malle Moto campaign on my WR, for 2014.

However, I took the painful decision not to enter at the beginning of July.

Rally Raid Products, Torque Racing and KTM Twins are still fully committed to making this project a reality. Without the deadline of shipping a (currently unproven) bike to South America in three and a half month's time, we can concentrate fully on building, testing and race/rally proving the bike over the next few months, and then be in a position to offer the package for the 2015 Dakar instead.

I know there are a number of ADVrider inmates who have their eye on entering the 2015 Dakar themselves, so I hope the LC4-50 project and associated rental/service package that Rally Raid/Torque Racing can provide will offer them a very real and realistic [budget] option to consider when the time comes.

Jx

JMo (& piglet) screwed with this post 08-02-2013 at 03:58 AM
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:07 AM   #305
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Bummer you won't be there in January....understandable but still a bummer.

Hope the project continues and works out, its quite the intriguing concept
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:14 AM   #306
JayBo1
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Great shame you won't be there in January, JMo & piglet. I was looking forward to meeting you and letting you know personally that you've been an inspiration for me.
I'm sure though that it's the right thing to do, as the Dakar isn't playing tiddly-winks and you have to be absolutely "in the right place" mentally and physically to enter, let alone finish it! I hope everything pans out well for 2015 then and the torture of watching the highlights from the other side of the world isn't too savage in 2014.
Cheers
JayBo
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:57 AM   #307
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Sounds like an excellent and very sound plan you've got going!
Cheers.
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:05 AM   #308
Offroadie1
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Don't worry Mr Clearandlock ..... if you keep the revs down and change the oil that machine of yours will be fine
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Old 08-02-2013, 11:09 AM   #309
clearandlock
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Originally Posted by Offroadie1 View Post
Don't worry Mr Clearandlock ..... if you keep the revs down and change the oil that machine of yours will be fine
And I have a new spare engine in a box..!
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:35 PM   #310
ktmmitch
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Movement in the workshop!!!

We will be CNC machining the first piston for our 450cc conversion for our Dakar project.
Once machined,Martin, at Torque Racing will finish the top end rebuild so that we can check cylinder head volumes,squish and valve clearances before running the engine in our donor bike.
One of the great by-products of developing this special piston,produced for us by world famous F1 Cosworth Engineering company,is that we will also be making 2 other versions.
One will be a much higher spec standard replacement piston,the other will be a higher compression replacement for the road & supermoto guys with LC4 engines,such as Duke etc.
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Old 08-05-2013, 01:43 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by ktmmitch View Post
One will be a much higher spec standard replacement piston,the other will be a higher compression replacement for the road & supermoto guys with LC4 engines,such as Duke etc.
Now I can finally see some light at the end of the tunnel

Congrats Mitch, these are some nice pockets on the piston
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:08 PM   #312
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Hmm Jen, you and me both.

At least you have made a couple of Dakar stages.

Every year it seems to be the same old same old for me:

2010 - BB2007 enters the game, a rally rookie. One rally school and one Dos Sertoes later rearing to go. The upside of this is after breaking some bones and still finishing, I realize I like doing rallies. This is an important point many wannabe's forget about.
2011 - No entry obviously.
2012 - No entry. Keen as can be, but into a new job with no time to train. and a hysterical Mrs BB going on about the finances being drained for my rally thing. I make do with chasing the Dakar for 4 stages in Peru on my 800GS
2013 - No entry, again money being the issue. My job eats even more time, but the dream is still there. I decide 2014 is going to be my year and plan to chase the 2013 Dakar for 7 days. On the 26th December, while riding with my kids I show off too much and crush my tibia. Get a bone transplant, workshop filled with steel and a holiday from walking for 7 months. Game over.
2014 No entry - I only start limping without crutches 10 days ago

So maybe.....MAYBE 2015....If

1) I am fit
2) I have done another rally beforehand
3) I have the cash

The last one is a bugger. At least I have the bike, but its a second hand one, and like you said I'll need a new engine. Next years Dakar will be short and technical, the following year will be LOOOoonng and I reckon might include Peru again and Brazil.
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:40 PM   #313
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Bummer

Jen, that is such a bummer.

I was looking forward to annoying you at some point on the rally but like you say, you cannot commit to such a financial undertaking without a running bike.

I will still be riding down there and it will be a shame not to see you in action.

I feel for you.

Commiserations, Ray
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Old 08-06-2013, 05:00 AM   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktmmitch View Post
We will be CNC machining the first piston for our 450cc conversion for our Dakar project.
Once machined,Martin, at Torque Racing will finish the top end rebuild so that we can check cylinder head volumes,squish and valve clearances before running the engine in our donor bike.
One of the great by-products of developing this special piston,produced for us by world famous F1 Cosworth Engineering company,is that we will also be making 2 other versions.
One will be a much higher spec standard replacement piston,the other will be a higher compression replacement for the road & supermoto guys with LC4 engines,such as Duke etc.
This might seem a daft question, but why a high comp. piston for the road and motard guys? What about the rest of us? Would you not recommend a high compression ratio for off-roading? What do you think the ratio will end up at? 12.5:1?
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:37 PM   #315
ktmmitch
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Originally Posted by gladiator View Post
This might seem a daft question, but why a high comp. piston for the road and motard guys? What about the rest of us? Would you not recommend a high compression ratio for off-roading? What do you think the ratio will end up at? 12.5:1?
The high comp Cosworth piston for Lc4 engine will be 12.8:1,and anyone can use it,it's just the road guys and SM racers are the ones that have shown the most interest.
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