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Old 03-13-2014, 04:26 AM   #391
JMo (& piglet) OP
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And few photos of John Mitchinson (Rally Raid Products) aka KTMmitch razzing the LC4-50 through the dunes during our testing session in Tunisia this week... it's proper eye-candy!














So far the signs are good - Martin Wittering from Torque Racing (who built the engine) has been able to adjust the standard 690cc fueling map to better work with the 450cc capacity - but ultimately of course it is going to need some work on the dyno to create a dedicated fuel map. Once we get back to the UK next week we will strip the engine to inspect it, then make the necessary modifications to get the balance right - the feeling at the moment is that [with John's open air-box mods for the 690cc capacity] their is simply too much air for the 450cc engine, and it is in effect both over-aired and over-fueled for the capacity.

Ironically, putting the standard air-box back on might well be the solution!

More soon!

Jx

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Old 03-13-2014, 02:17 PM   #392
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So far the signs are good - Martin Wittering from Torque Racing (who built the engine) has been able to adjust the standard 690cc fueling map to better work with the 450cc capacity - but ultimately of course it is going to need some work on the dyno to create a dedicated fuel map. Once we get back to the UK next week we will strip the engine to inspect it, then make the necessary modifications to get the balance right - the feeling at the moment is that [with John's open air-box mods for the 690cc capacity] their is simply too much air for the 450cc engine, and it is in effect both over-aired and over-fueled for the capacity.
Problem isn't too much air it's the velocity of it. Port and valve sizes for 690 are not going to be optimum for 450. Will be low on torque at low rpm and need to be worked very hard. If you can rev it to the moon it will have very high hp potential but this isn't the object of the exercise.

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Old 03-31-2014, 10:20 AM   #393
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Problem isn't too much air it's the velocity of it. Port and valve sizes for 690 are not going to be optimum for 450. Will be low on torque at low rpm and need to be worked very hard. If you can rev it to the moon it will have very high hp potential but this isn't the object of the exercise.
I understand your principle there, but I'm note sure it's the case (KTMmitch will be able to explain better), as I understand it, the crown of the 450 piston has been specially shaped to closely match the original air/charge velocity of the 690...

The dyno is booked for the end of this week, and we ought to see some clear figures then... but certainly the seat of the pants feel is that there is still plenty of torque at the bottom end - it's just choking itself at the top of the rev range...

In the meantime, the UK press have caught wind of the project - hopefully this is just the first of many features over the coming weeks and months!



Jx
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Old 04-04-2014, 04:39 AM   #394
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"power!!!"

Hot news just in the from the Dyno room!


(this is not the actual dyno room, obviously...)

Martin Wittering and John Mitchinson from Rally Raid Products have got the LC4-50 on the dyno this morning, and the results are nothing short of fantastic!

After setting up the fueling correctly, the 450cc short-stroke LC4-50 engine produced 43.6bhp (that is actual Rear Wheel BHP) at a maximum of 7190rpm...

Torque figures edited for correction
It also produces a maximum 33.7lb/ft torque at 6800rpm, but perhaps more importantly, produces 80% of that from 3,500rpm linearly until the redline "It's Like a diesel!" says John "It pulls like a tractor now!"

This really is fantastic news, as John would have been happy if they'd hit 40bhp with their short-stroke over-square 450cc conversion to the original LC4 690 engine.

"To compare [with other 450cc enduro bikes]" he says "They had a 2014 model WR450F on the dyno here last week, and that made 43bhp RWHP too) - so we are right where we wanted to be!"

As a further comparison, Martin and John brought along a stock 40,000 mile 2010 model KTM 690 Enduro (654cc) as a benchmark, that achieved 59.1bhp at 6800rpm, and 46.4 lb/ft torque at 6250rpm.

It is certainly a day for celebration for everyone involved in the project... and of course now the fun really begins!


With the bike effectively ready to race now, I shall be starting a new Dakar Dazed II thread (essentially part 2 of the project) shortly, to coincide with my participation in the Hellas Rally next month... and our ongoing progress as we build the team for Dakar 2015.

Not only will this be my first competitive rally since Dakar, but it will be a great way to see how the new bike performs over a week of tough going - and as an added endurance test, I shall be riding it all the way to Greece and back from the UK - yep, I must be mad!

Stay tuned for more info as we prep the bike, and set off to really prove it's worth!

Toot toot!

Jenny xx

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Old 04-04-2014, 04:55 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
After setting up the fueling correctly, the 450cc short-stroke LC4-50 engine produced 43.6bhp (that is actual Rear Wheel BHP) at a maximum of 7190rpm...

Perhaps more importantly, it produces 48.5lb/ft torque at just 2500rpm, and has a flat torque curve "Like a diesel!" says John "It pulls like a tractor now!"

"To compare [with other 450cc enduro bikes]" he says "They had a 2014 model WR450F on the dyno here last week, and that made 43bhp RWHP too) - so we are right where we wanted to be!"
Jenny,

Curious on the WR450, was it de-corked (AIS, etc), fuel map modified? Or straight off the floor? Would be really interesting to see how the LC4-50 compared to a race-ready enduro bike.

Glad to see that this project has gotten along so far!

- Ken
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Old 04-04-2014, 04:56 AM   #396
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STOP PRESS!

Just had a phone call from John - after successful testing with the stock rev limiter in place, they decided to see what it would make by upping the limit to 8800rpm... 46.9bhp - rear wheel horsepower!!!


"They guys [at the dyno shop] were so impressed with it - they felt it could go all day at full chat" explains John "And asked if I wanted to raise the limiter just to see the maximum we could get out of it - we'd already got [more than] what we came for, so I didn't care if it blew up... (not that it was going to of course), and sure enough, we got even more power out of it!!!"

Because they are building a custom fuel map for the engine, it is quite possible that further refinements can be made - and the intention is to build the new base map and then set up the bike again in a couple of weeks time - stay tuned!

Jx

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Old 04-04-2014, 05:01 AM   #397
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rev's

So even with the short stroke the bike still rev's up quick? how does it feel compared to the 690 motor and pull? or did you get to ride the 690 before you took it apart? So you did nothing to the head and valves right? This was just a re-mapping session that they were able to dial in the fuel setting to get this kind of HP and torque. So if I understand this right...it will not have to be rev'ed the shit out of in the sand/dunes so the motor will not have to work as hard. then this will help with the overall durability of the motor also?
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Old 04-04-2014, 05:06 AM   #398
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Jenny,

Curious on the WR450, was it de-corked (AIS, etc), fuel map modified? Or straight off the floor? Would be really interesting to see how the LC4-50 compared to a race-ready enduro bike.

Glad to see that this project has gotten along so far!

- Ken
Hi Ken - I don't know the full details, but it was a magazine test of four bikes, so I imagine they were pretty stock (although you know how manufacturers like to send out bikes at their 'optimum' ahem.)

The bottom line is any bike can be made to create huge power - the Factory rally bikes from KTM and Honda are pushing 60bhp from 450ccs, and the MX-derived TM 450 they had on the dyno last week as part of the magazine test put our 55bhp - but as the tester said "Probably not for very long!"

John never set out to try and beat the manufacturers power outputs, he would have been happy just to be in the ball-park for a stock 450cc enduro bike (if only to make it a realistic alternative for the privateer shopper), so this result is fantastic news as what it proves is not only the concept worked, but works well!

The whole point with this project was to create a 450cc (ie. Dakar eligible) engine, that could run all day and more importantly the whole rally, and be ultra-reliable - have the benefits of a super-strong gearbox and oil capacity, and fundamentally not require an engine change either during the rally, or even during a season.

Cost is also a major consideration, and even with the price of the engine conversion kit parts, building a Dakar-spec rally bike using the Rally Raid Products kit on a brand new 690 should only be able half what it costs to buy a 450RFR... so that is effectively your bike and your entry covered for the same money should you wish to ride Malle Moto for example - is the LC4-50 the ultimate privateer bike? Quite possibly!

Jx
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Old 04-04-2014, 05:09 AM   #399
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Nice to hear the news Jenny!!

Congratunlations to the team for pulling this off. Horsepower aside, off course the detune is there, so the horsepower is down, O am wondering the following. You should be able to overlap the torque curves for both stock and modified bike to see the difference, I may be missing something here cause I have not had any goodnight sleep for the last couple of weeks but would not more torque mean more load on the transmission?
I am wondering if eventually the reliability will equal that of the 690, which of course is nowhere near the race ready 450's (it is far better I mean...).

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Old 04-04-2014, 05:36 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by StepOnIt View Post
So even with the short stroke the bike still rev's up quick? how does it feel compared to the 690 motor and pull? or did you get to ride the 690 before you took it apart? So you did nothing to the head and valves right? This was just a re-mapping session that they were able to dial in the fuel setting to get this kind of HP and torque. So if I understand this right...it will not have to be rev'ed the shit out of in the sand/dunes so the motor will not have to work as hard. then this will help with the overall durability of the motor also?
OK, let me see if I can answer these in order!

Yes the bike still revs quickly, although not perhaps in the same way as a 'regular' 450cc enduro/mx engine does, due primarily to having the same bore as the 690 engine - so effectively, it still feels like a 'big' capacity bike in the way the power is delivered.

I've not ridden a 690cc version so cannot make a back to back comparison, but those that have say it feels very much like the original bike in the way the power is delivered.

You are correct, nothing has been done to the head and valves - it is simply a change of crank/rod and piston. The idea was always to try and minimise the number of components (and cost thereof) that were required for conversion - this is not about chasing maximum power, rather building an ultra-reliable 450cc rally bike engine.

As such, the throttle body and airbox are original [690cc] size too (although the airbox on John's [the test] bike has been modified to improve the airflow for when it was 654cc - we thought that might be too much air for the smaller capacity, but as it turns out, the Cosworth piston design closely replicates the air/mixture flow of the original, and once the fueling was set up correctly, we found the fuel/air balance was fine with the open airbox in place.

Yes, this session was primarily about setting up a new and dedicated fuel-map for the 450cc capacity. Now we have that, with some fine tuning, we might be able to improve things further - although already it has a very smooth curve and 80% of maximum torque all the way from 3500rpm upwards...

Which brings me to your final question - yes, exactly - with so much of the overall torque available lower down the rev-range, the idea is the bike will be able to lug along at lower revs, which as you surmise, will also help with longevity...

This coupled with the larger oil capacity (compared to an mx/enduro derived engine) and the stronger gears in the gearbox, should make the thing pretty unbreakable, and certainly not require an 'engine change' half way through an event - hell, you could probably just change the oil on rest-day and call it good!

Jx

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Old 04-04-2014, 05:44 AM   #401
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Nice to hear the news Jenny!!

Congratunlations to the team for pulling this off. Horsepower aside, off course the detune is there, so the horsepower is down, O am wondering the following. You should be able to overlap the torque curves for both stock and modified bike to see the difference, I may be missing something here cause I have not had any goodnight sleep for the last couple of weeks but would not more torque mean more load on the transmission?
I am wondering if eventually the reliability will equal that of the 690, which of course is nowhere near the race ready 450's (it is far better I mean...).

Yes - the idea is not to try and run it at maximum power and the higher rev limit, it was just an experiment on John's part to see what could be achieved... BTW. it's managed 47.1bhp @ 8260rpm now!

John will be along shortly I'm sure with video and graphs and the such like to explain the technical details more fully...

As for the torque - the original figure has been adjusted btw. a mistake in the original interpretation of the figures - so it's not as high as the 690 (and let's face it, it shouldn't have been really?!) so the 690 gearbox isn't going to be troubled by it...

Once we get the graphs, we can properly compare how the torque curves are between the original and 450cc versions - but certainly the torque from the new engine is very consistent from 3500rpm onwards...

Again, John is your man for the real nerdy stuff!

Jx

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Old 04-04-2014, 06:28 AM   #402
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BTW. it's managed 47.1bhp @ 8260rpm now!
Jx


Next thing you know you will reach the same power as the stock 690


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Old 04-04-2014, 06:51 AM   #403
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Next thing you know you will reach the same power as the stock 690


Heh heh - knowing John, I think he's just 'banking' some numbers, as I know he intends to put a stock KTM 450 RFR on the dyno in the next couple of weeks ;o)

Of course we know that KTM tried this route before deciding to go with a new engine design based on the SX lump - I guess if you are chasing ultimate horsepower there is going to be a limitation with the over-square design? - however, for anyone else, I think the benefits of retaining the stronger bottom end of the LC4 makes a lot of sense - especially for a privateer on a budget?

It will be interesting to see how far off the [standard customer version] 450RFR we are for sure!

Jx
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Old 04-04-2014, 07:41 AM   #404
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Curious also what the weight differences are...
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Old 04-04-2014, 08:23 AM   #405
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Curious also what the weight differences are...
I can tell you that John's LC4-50, with all his crap (sorry, I mean 'tools and spares') fitted, plus half full tanks weighs in at 147kg...

Jx
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