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Old 01-31-2013, 09:47 PM   #46
everycredit
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Foam, by definition, is a solid and/or liquid mixed with a gas. In the case of engine oil, common culprits (in my experience) are as follows (and in no order of preference):
  • bad oil that doesn't meet anti-foaming standards
  • a mixture of two or more incompatible motor oils
  • a polar liquid (water, coolant) mixing with a non-polar (motor oil) fluid and being shook vigorously
  • PCV failure (due to the valve or too much oil in the crankcase)
  • engine design (my G650X will cause oil to foam at the dip stick--was told this is normal and wait a few minutes after a ride for the bubbles to pop)
  • engine failure (damage to the engine block or oil system that causes an issue above or another issue altogether)
So I echo everyone else in terms of the color of the foam.

I drain oil from a hot engine because it is less viscous than cold oil, so it drains faster and "more complete". I never thought of absorption of water in the oil, but at first thought don't understand why this would be the case.
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:33 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
And the cold water is on the inside.

Reverse it.

Jim
So what you are saying is that the water condenses on the inside of case , which is cold on the outside. How did the water get inside in the first place?
Chicken and egg thing?
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:54 AM   #48
everycredit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRP View Post
So what you are saying is that the water condenses on the inside of case , which is cold on the outside. How did the water get inside in the first place?
Chicken and egg thing?
Relative humidity.
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:01 AM   #49
JimVonBaden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRP View Post
So what you are saying is that the water condenses on the inside of case , which is cold on the outside. How did the water get inside in the first place?
Chicken and egg thing?
Yes, and re read my posts. I explained how.

Jim
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:58 AM   #50
Wallowa
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On A Boxer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by everycredit View Post
Foam, by definition, is a solid and/or liquid mixed with a gas. In the case of engine oil, common culprits (in my experience) are as follows (and in no order of preference):
  • bad oil that doesn't meet anti-foaming standards
  • a mixture of two or more incompatible motor oils
  • a polar liquid (water, coolant) mixing with a non-polar (motor oil) fluid and being shook vigorously
  • PCV failure (due to the valve or too much oil in the crankcase)
  • engine design (my G650X will cause oil to foam at the dip stick--was told this is normal and wait a few minutes after a ride for the bubbles to pop)
  • engine failure (damage to the engine block or oil system that causes an issue above or another issue altogether)
So I echo everyone else in terms of the color of the foam.

I drain oil from a hot engine because it is less viscous than cold oil, so it drains faster and "more complete". I never thought of absorption of water in the oil, but at first thought don't understand why this would be the case.
OK I missed that...do we have a PCV valve on a boxer motor? I thought there was a crankcase vent in the air box?

But hey, I could be wrong...
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:01 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post
OK I missed that...do we have a PCV valve on a boxer motor? I thought there was a crankcase vent in the air box?

But hey, I could be wrong...
No PVC valve, just a hose between the airbox and crank case.

Jim
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:02 AM   #52
Wallowa
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And in What Amount

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRP View Post
So what you are saying is that the water condenses on the inside of case , which is cold on the outside. How did the water get inside in the first place?
Chicken and egg thing?

Since I believe we have an open vent in the air box that vents the crankcase, like old road draft tube, the outside moisture would be drawn in as the motor cools...but the amount of moisture is what I find bothering...is there really enough drawn in to "contaminate the oil"? And again, one run of motor up to normal operating temp and moisture is gone.

Geeeez folks...somebody show me an oil analysis with an excess of moisture from a boxer motor that was not run through water or run in heavy rains [our air horn funnels water into the air box with a direct path into motor] but only accumulated the moisture from "short runs" and I will be a believer....
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Wallowa screwed with this post 02-01-2013 at 10:07 AM
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:05 AM   #53
JimVonBaden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post
Since I believe we have an open vent in the air box that vents the crankcase, like old road draft tube, the outside moisture would be drawn in as the motor cools...but the amount of moisture is what I find bothering...is there really enough drawn in to "contaminate the oil"? And again, one run of motor up to normal operating temp and moisture is gone.
Yes and no.

If you make multiple 10 minute trips to work with no longer half hour plus trips, it will build up. But just one short trip, not going to happen. This is why it is normally not an issue. How many people ONLY ride in 10 minute intervals?

Jim
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:12 AM   #54
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FYI From Spectro Oil FAQ site

I saw this FAQ on the Spectro Oil website:

Is My Oil Supposed to Foam?

I recently changed the engine oil on my BMW R 1200 GS from Spectro 4 to Golden Spectro. I noticed that there is a small layer of foam on top of the oil level in the sight glass when I switch off the engine. The layer disappears after a while. I have done 4 rides (20km each) and it does it every time. Any thoughts?

Answer:
The foam you see forming on the top of the oil is normal, and does not in any way effect performance. When oil is cool it tends to produce a slight foam on the surface until operating temp is reached. As the oil temperature rises (normal operating temp 170-220 degrees f), the oil viscosity becomes lighter and the bubbles trapped on top will “pop” and the foam you see will disappear. The film strength of the oil at colder temps will trap air at the top of the oil reservoir, this is why you see a small layer of foam. Golden Spectro has a higher film strength then Spectro 4, therefore it is more likely to trap air at the surface when cool Vs Spectro 4. This is different from oil “foaming” which is air trapped in the entire body of oil and is bad for oil and engine performance. Oil saturated with air will cause cavitations, erratic oil pressure, oil overheating and possible starvation of oil to engine components. Poor quality oils are prone to foaming when hot or stressed.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:32 PM   #55
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Excellent.

High TBN oils also often permit longer OCIs.
True, but I change it frequently anyway. :)

Quote:
Rotella, Delo and Delvac are all excellent HDEOs. You don't need the synthetic versions to get the high TBN advantage. Also, if you find yourself a quart low, any truck stop carries them as well as Wal-mart.

They are low cost oils used by diesel fleet owners who demand quality and value.
Yup. I've changed my Airhead oil in the parking lot of a truckstop before... the mechanics are usually more than willing to loan you and oil pan, and take the used oil back along with it.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:38 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
Yes and no.

If you make multiple 10 minute trips to work with no longer half hour plus trips, it will build up. But just one short trip, not going to happen. This is why it is normally not an issue. How many people ONLY ride in 10 minute intervals?

Jim
My commute is ten minutes.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:41 PM   #57
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My commute is ten minutes.
Mine too, but I get out at least one or 2 times a week in the winter to get my ya-yas out... And my wife knows enough not to ask me to stop at the store on the way home... unless she specifies *which* store exactly... :)

50 mile round trip isn't bad for a loaf of bread, right?
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:47 PM   #58
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Remember the exaust is a steam bath. If I remember my stoichiometry correctly there are about 9 molecules of water for 1 molecule of fuel. By far the largest components of exaust is carbon dioxide and water. Heat and lots of it is sometimes your friend. In a Cessna 172 that I owned I couldn't get the engine hot enough to drive all the water off. Every time the oil was changed about a table spoon of water came out with the oil. chip
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:08 PM   #59
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Two ways the moist atmosphere gets into a modern boxer (beside combustion byproducts).

Both pistons go in and out at the same time. On every revolution of the crank you are displacing 1100 or 1150, or 1200 cc of air in the crankcase. Air in and air out... alot!

As a hot engine cools it will draw in outside air. Simple physics.

There isn't a place on the earth that has zero humidity. You get pretty close in the sub zero locations but not zero. That is the moisture that gets into the motor.
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:42 PM   #60
Wallowa
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Thanks! Apprec iate It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerg View Post
Two ways the moist atmosphere gets into a modern boxer (beside combustion byproducts).

Both pistons go in and out at the same time. On every revolution of the crank you are displacing 1100 or 1150, or 1200 cc of air in the crankcase. Air in and air out... alot!

As a hot engine cools it will draw in outside air. Simple physics.

There isn't a place on the earth that has zero humidity. You get pretty close in the sub zero locations but not zero. That is the moisture that gets into the motor.

Thanks Greg....that makes sense...I forgot that while the cylinder heads [combustion chambers] have a slight volume, the cylinders/pistons have close to the total displacement of the engine...so yes, as pistons go up and down they alternately compress and then draw in air within the crankcase...DUH! Indeed that does bring a lot of outside cool or cold moisture laden air. Cooling engine [non-running] drawing in outside air is less of a factor than the active pumping of air in and out with pistons displacing that much volume.

I appreciate learning...notwithstanding that...when in doubt, pay the $ and get the oil analyzed! Guessing is one thing...chemical analysis is another. Do it right and don't guess.

10 min bike rides? That would have never occurred to me...

Aircraft motor mentioned...added factor there is the 4 degrees F ambient temp drop per 1,000 of elevation gain..hence at altitude the air temp is down ..but if you only got a tablespoon of water, not really a big issue in my book...exhaust moisture content is not part of the equation of moisture in the engine...unless again, there is significant piston/ring blow-by.
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Wallowa screwed with this post 02-01-2013 at 02:05 PM
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