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Old 02-01-2013, 05:34 PM   #46
eakins
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"BMW is saying expensive dirt bike market is basically dead,"

nice way of say we got our asses handed to us by KTM. BMW is getting out of dirt.
BMW released funky bikes into that market and people did not bite.
KTM is doing just fine in the expensive dirt bike market

BMW thinks it's future is in urban mobility scooters but Kymco and Japan Inc are gonna eat BMW in price and offer the same scoot.

the more i read this deal the more i think it's KTM the got the better deal.
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:08 PM   #47
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The BMW 450 did have a couple of Wins in the enduro circuit. I always thought that hanging the clutch on the crank was a bit iffy. That clutch has to go from zero to very high RPMs under load. That whole idea just seems like a clutch pad eater.
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:08 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
"BMW is saying expensive dirt bike market is basically dead,"

nice way of say we got our asses handed to us by KTM. BMW is getting out of dirt. BMW released funky bikes into that market and people did not bite.
KTM is doing just fine in the expensive dirt bike market

BMW thinks it's future is in urban mobility scooters but Kymco and Japan Inc are gonna eat BMW in price and offer the same scoot.

the more i read this deal the more i think it's KTM the got the better deal.
Could be ... lets see how it works out. But DIRT is a central pillar of BMW's very best selling bike: R1200GS.

The GS is touted as some sort of miracle adventure bike, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. (Sure, we all know the truth ) ... but the myth persists and BMW marketing mavens will surly continue to exploit the "DIRT" and "Adventure" elements as its key talents and sales will continue strong.

If ever there was an expensive dirt bike ... the GS is IT. The new GS will be OVER $20,000! So not dead yet! ... and as you say KTM have proved their expensive dirt bikes are doing pretty well also .... but not all that well.

BMW could easily produce real dirt bikes but I think they want to head to "Greener" pastures, IE elec. bikes and Urban scooters. They've seen the Japanese getting badly hammered ... as Motocross bike sales are at the bottom industry wide ... and continue there. Perhaps that's scared them off?

But I'm surprised BMW are willing to leave Dakar behind and the prestige it brings. And other race series available (World Enduro, Moto Cross, GNCC et al)
given how well they've done with the SS1000 road racer. I agree ... and I said it before: Kymco, Japan and the dozens of Chinese brands will devour BMW's Snitzel odd balls. Not to mention solid competitors like Peugot and many established Spanish and Italian brands. IMHO, car cachet will not transfer to Scooters.

E bikes are another matter. Initial buyers will be RUBs. (Rich Urban Bikers) But the initial show off crowd will lose interest after their first Winter ... and the less expensive Chinese stuff will move in and dominate that market too.
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:57 PM   #49
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I would equate the success of BMW's ADV bikes with that of Harley and crotch-rockets...road bikes

..."the idea of dirt" definitely is a pillar of BMW's ADV bike's success, but I've never seen a Starbucks in the sticks

I believe the power of the BMW's ADV mystique/marketing is why they are not bothering to continue to develop truly dirt-oriented motorcycles. They want to focus on what they're good at/what brings them fat margins: making rich people feel warm and fuzzy about being pseudo-risque. There's just more money in "idea of dirt" bikes and road bikes.

KTM can only mark-up so much for it's mystique because a lot of it's customer base is from the hardcore offroad no-frills crowd where price, function, and performance have obvious correlations. KTM actually has to deliver on its promise of performance. That being said they make money because they dominate that space and do in fact delivery most of the time. BMW can mark-up a lot more for it's mystique because the majority of its customer base are buying to fulfill much less tangible wants. It never really has to deliver anything tangible beyond a comfortable and otherwise decent road motorcycle. Where it doesn't have to actually deliver, it can reap fat margins.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:20 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Myfuture_yourdebt View Post
I would equate the success of BMW's ADV bikes with that of Harley and crotch-rockets...road bikes

..."the idea of dirt" definitely is a pillar of BMW's ADV bike's success, but I've never seen a Starbucks in the sticks

I believe the power of the BMW's ADV mystique/marketing is why they are not bothering to continue to develop truly dirt-oriented motorcycles. They want to focus on what they're good at/what brings them fat margins: making rich people feel warm and fuzzy about being pseudo-risque. There's just more money in "idea of dirt" bikes and road bikes.

KTM can only mark-up so much for it's mystique because a lot of it's customer base is from the hardcore offroad no-frills crowd where price, function, and performance have obvious correlations. KTM actually has to deliver on its promise of performance. That being said they make money because they dominate that space and do in fact delivery most of the time. BMW can mark-up a lot more for it's mystique because the majority of its customer base are buying to fulfill much less tangible wants. It never really has to deliver anything tangible beyond a comfortable and otherwise decent road motorcycle. Where it doesn't have to actually deliver, it can reap fat margins.
+++ 1 Spot on post.
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:50 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myfuture_yourdebt View Post
I would equate the success of BMW's ADV bikes with that of Harley and crotch-rockets...road bikes

..."the idea of dirt" definitely is a pillar of BMW's ADV bike's success, but I've never seen a Starbucks in the sticks

I believe the power of the BMW's ADV mystique/marketing is why they are not bothering to continue to develop truly dirt-oriented motorcycles. They want to focus on what they're good at/what brings them fat margins: making rich people feel warm and fuzzy about being pseudo-risque. There's just more money in "idea of dirt" bikes and road bikes.

KTM can only mark-up so much for it's mystique because a lot of it's customer base is from the hardcore offroad no-frills crowd where price, function, and performance have obvious correlations. KTM actually has to deliver on its promise of performance. That being said they make money because they dominate that space and do in fact delivery most of the time. BMW can mark-up a lot more for it's mystique because the majority of its customer base are buying to fulfill much less tangible wants. It never really has to deliver anything tangible beyond a comfortable and otherwise decent road motorcycle. Where it doesn't have to actually deliver, it can reap fat margins.
Very funny! What a masterful job in not hurting the tender sensibilities of the BMW crowd.
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:18 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Hair View Post
The BMW 450 did have a couple of Wins in the enduro circuit. I always thought that hanging the clutch on the crank was a bit iffy. That clutch has to go from zero to very high RPMs under load. That whole idea just seems like a clutch pad eater.
basically BMW choose to ignore what was learned over decades of experimentation and testing by others. the felt they were smarter than everyone else and that ego came back to bite them in the ass. I really like BMW bikes (had a few) but that German mentality of we are smarter than you gets old real fast.
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eakins screwed with this post 02-03-2013 at 11:35 PM
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:30 PM   #53
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dirt bikes and adv bikes are very different things.

BMW also knows most 1200GS never see dirt and they're fine with that. they just want to sell a ton because of the ADV image and that's OK. the goal of biz is to sell alot of things. that's how profits are made. Apple sells the image thing too. It works.

if they were really serious about dirt they would have progressed the HP2. it was just a thumb their nose at KTM move and KTM bitch-smacked them back with the Super Enduro. BMW then just faded away. I don't think they're into dirt.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
Could be ... lets see how it works out. But DIRT is a central pillar of BMW's very best selling bike: R1200GS.

The GS is touted as some sort of miracle adventure bike, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. (Sure, we all know the truth ) ... but the myth persists and BMW marketing mavens will surly continue to exploit the "DIRT" and "Adventure" elements as its key talents and sales will continue strong.

If ever there was an expensive dirt bike ... the GS is IT. The new GS will be OVER $20,000! So not dead yet! ... and as you say KTM have proved their expensive dirt bikes are doing pretty well also .... but not all that well.

BMW could easily produce real dirt bikes but I think they want to head to "Greener" pastures, IE elec. bikes and Urban scooters. They've seen the Japanese getting badly hammered ... as Motocross bike sales are at the bottom industry wide ... and continue there. Perhaps that's scared them off?

But I'm surprised BMW are willing to leave Dakar behind and the prestige it brings. And other race series available (World Enduro, Moto Cross, GNCC et al)
given how well they've done with the SS1000 road racer. I agree ... and I said it before: Kymco, Japan and the dozens of Chinese brands will devour BMW's Snitzel odd balls. Not to mention solid competitors like Peugot and many established Spanish and Italian brands. IMHO, car cachet will not transfer to Scooters.

E bikes are another matter. Initial buyers will be RUBs. (Rich Urban Bikers) But the initial show off crowd will lose interest after their first Winter ... and the less expensive Chinese stuff will move in and dominate that market too.
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:54 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by eakins View Post
basically BMW choose to ignore what was learned over decades of experimentation and testing by others. the felt they were smarter than everyone else and that ego came back to bite them in the ass. I really like BMW bikes (had a few) but that German mentality of we are smarter than you gets old real fast.
I've felt the same about BMW for years. They come into off road racing ... never having competed in the segment, with a bike that breaks several rules. But with good riders they were able to win a few World Enduro rounds ... but then they pulled out after they bought Husky.

As easy as it is to not approve of that teutonic smugness ... NO ONE can ignore the great success of the SS1000 ... of course a direct copy of Suzuki! But BMW's F-1 experience really shows on that motor. It gets better every year and is now a serious contender in WSB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
if they were really serious about dirt they would have progressed the HP2. it was just a thumb their nose at KTM move and KTM bitch-smacked them back with the Super Enduro. BMW then just faded away. I don't think they're into dirt.
you're right ... as I've said earlier, BMW seem headed away from Moto, Enduro competition ... and it seems all forms of off road racing.

Pressure is mounting (mostly in the EU and Germany specifically) for BMW to commit to "Going Green". This is a BIG deal in Germany and BMW are changing course for sure. You get hints of this change in annual reports and statements from BMW Gmbh.

And Honda is the first of the Japanese OEM's to really head seriously in a more Green direction. The transition will take 20 years ... but there it is.
Brave New World.
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:04 AM   #55
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I wouldn't be surprised to see KTM controlling ownership being transferred to Bajaj in the close future.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:24 AM   #56
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Husqvarna build by Bajaj

http://videos.moneycontrol.com/web18..._ktm_05feb.mp4

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/bus...s-_818643.html
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:35 AM   #57
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Very interesting. The CEO's description of their manufacturing/marketing plan using VW as a model for the auto industry makes some sense. I got the impression that Husky might be directed more at the emerging nations market, however.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:21 AM   #58
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this article shows VW use of the same modular platform design concept
http://autos.yahoo.com/news/has-volk...192022985.html

& that KTM is said to use w/ Husky & Berg.
KTM and Berg are there now. Expect Husky to use those same KTM engines and frame but built with cheaper components than KTM and Burg build with more expensive than KTM. Same core bike & engine and 3 price points/equipment levels to buy. That's a win for the consumer in my book as core parts are found at any KTM dealer plus supply is better.

Honda is doing it with it's 700 twin package now with 5 motorcyle designs.
Expect alot more of this in the future from other mfg.



"Watershed Event

VW's suppliers see MQB as a watershed event, a break with a past when really big vehicle platforms might have yielded orders for as many as 5 million or 6 million identical components over their typical six- to seven-year life cycle.

Now, with the implementation of MQB, "they're being asked for quotes on 35 million parts," says a senior European industry executive.

More importantly, the modularity enables VW to design, engineer and build a wide variety of vehicle size and shapes - from a subcompact Polo hatchback to a full-size, seven-passenger crossover that's due in the United States in 2015.

The flexibility of the MQB system also allows VW to create more cars that are more tailored for specific markets at a lower cost, and it doesn't have to sell so many units to break even, according to Morgan Stanley analyst Stuart Pearson."
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eakins screwed with this post 02-12-2013 at 05:34 PM
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:05 PM   #59
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Their first MOB was called the Bug.

Motorcycle daily reported that Husky might return home. Sweeden I guess.

And join forces with Husaberg.

Which one the KTM owed one. Or the one that moved to the US and called it's self Highland.

I am really confused. But I am also hoping that my next new and perfect dual sport or trail bike will not be made by KTM. I'm to fricken old to kick start my 525 half way up Blanca. Or my spend an hour kicking my 530 somewhere out in the desert.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:53 PM   #60
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Update

Here is an update that raises many questions as to what the real future of Husqvarna is.
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