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Old 03-12-2013, 09:05 AM   #136
Flipczak
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Where is the spalling in relation to the oil drain "shadows"? If it's directly on the other side my guess is some sort of oil additive did'nt like that bronze material.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:19 AM   #137
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A little history I bought the 1973 bike in 1984 and vaguely remember riding it home. It looked like it had been through a war and had obviously seen a rough life in Ontario by the PO who racked up about 87,000 tough kilometers (54,000 miles). He was clearly not mechanically inclined nor was he a big fan of preventative maintenance. In a final leap of faith, he rode the bike from Sudbury to Vancouver, a distance of about 2000 miles, and left it with a buddy who ultimately sold it to me. I think I paid 800 bucks for it.
On second thought, possible frozen water damaged the bearing as the bike is from the great white north
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:12 PM   #138
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All good points but I now realize the real issue is the bronze has been almost completely worn off the face of the washer (I can see traces of it in the cold light of day). This is probably a blessing in disguise - I was wondering why the flywheel mating surface wasn't scored. Will definitely need a new thrust washer and will try to figure out the thickness calculation tonight - I understand they come in three thicknesses.

Also, I am wondering if I put the RMS in far enough - left it out about 1mm and maybe that's why the crank was binding when I torqued the flywheel bolts. Don't worry, will definitely buy new bolts.

Sorry if this is a bit tedious - it's all been covered in ADV many times, I'm sure. This stuff is nerve racking for hobbyists like me.
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Old 03-12-2013, 08:15 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Tin Woodman View Post
All good points but I now realize the real issue is the bronze has been almost completely worn off the face of the washer (I can see traces of it in the cold light of day). This is probably a blessing in disguise - I was wondering why the flywheel mating surface wasn't scored. Will definitely need a new thrust washer and will try to figure out the thickness calculation tonight - I understand they come in three thicknesses.

Also, I am wondering if I put the RMS in far enough - left it out about 1mm and maybe that's why the crank was binding when I torqued the flywheel bolts. Don't worry, will definitely buy new bolts.

Sorry if this is a bit tedious - it's all been covered in ADV many times, I'm sure. This stuff is nerve racking for hobbyists like me.
Put the seal back and leave it 1 mm proud like you did before. Mark up the face of the seal (that faces the flywheel) with a sharpie marker. Put flywheel on and gradually tighten the bolts until it just binds. Then turn it around a couple of times and take it off. See if the marks on the seal face are still there.

The thrust washer would need to be massively worn to be bad. I would ignore surface coloring. Lot of times parts have a thin plating to prevent corrosion in the warehouse. In this case the color denotes the size. Put it back, put everything together, torque the flywheel (use the old bolts) and check the crank endfloat. If it is good, just build the fool thing. Replace the flywheel bolts if you want. Personally I wouldn't, they haven't been under torque long enough to matter. But it won't hurt a bit.

If the crank end float isn't good, then measure what you got, take it apart, measure your thrust washer and you know what to buy.

I should add, a thrust washer is monolithic. Same material all the way through. it's not like there is some thin layer of bronze. Bronze washers are sintered---made of pressed powder. They are porous and hold oil. That's why you use bronze. A Babbit bearing is a little different. You may have a thick layer of the babbit metal on a backer of a different material. But they don't have to be made that way. The thing you got does not look like sintered bronze and the application is inappropriate for a babbit bearing. In fact it's inappropriate for any type of bearing. It's pinned, remember? Try a magnet on it yet?. If it sticks you got a steel spacer.

The thrust washers are designated green (on the inside) and red, on the outside. The other sizes are different colors.

Plaka screwed with this post 03-12-2013 at 08:49 PM
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Old 03-12-2013, 08:45 PM   #140
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It sounds like maybe the inside thrust washer is off its pins?
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:44 PM   #141
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Thanks for the kick in the butt, Plaka. I shall get on with it. Checked with a magnet tonight when I got home - yep, it's steel alright. Good advice about marking the seal with a Sharpie to check for clearance - will try that tomorrow. Checked end play with existing washer - almost imperceptible and not measurable without a dial gauge, but it's there nonetheless.

I'm positive the inner thrust bearing is back on its pins, SS. Got it back on before I torqued or forced anything. Thing spins like a top with the flywheel back on (but without seal).

As always, grateful for the input.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:27 PM   #142
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RMS Installtion

Just a couple of observations regarding the RMS installation
When I first started as a BMW mechanic about twenty years ago, after having wrenched on Japanese bikes for the previous twenty years, I was taught to install the RMS flush with the case and bone dry on the sealing surface.
The flywheel side seal surface is cleaned and left completely dry as well, with the explanation given that some of the Teflon on the RMS will transfer to the seal surface on the flywheel forming a Teflon to Teflon seal.
I've never had one come back leaking, including the one I just installed a couple of months ago when I installed my lightened flywheel.
Can anybody else confirm these instructions ? Either from anecdotal evidence or some sort of Service Bulletin or BMW training classes.

Back to Tin Woodman's dilemma, I believe that leaving the seal sitting proud is the cause for the crank locking up, which will reveal itself with the magic marker check if I'm correct.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:36 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Plaka View Post
Put the seal back and leave it 1 mm proud like you did before. Mark up the face of the seal (that faces the flywheel) with a sharpie marker. Put flywheel on and gradually tighten the bolts until it just binds. Then turn it around a couple of times and take it off. See if the marks on the seal face are still there.

The thrust washer would need to be massively worn to be bad. I would ignore surface coloring. Lot of times parts have a thin plating to prevent corrosion in the warehouse. In this case the color denotes the size. Put it back, put everything together, torque the flywheel (use the old bolts) and check the crank endfloat. If it is good, just build the fool thing. Replace the flywheel bolts if you want. Personally I wouldn't, they haven't been under torque long enough to matter. But it won't hurt a bit.

If the crank end float isn't good, then measure what you got, take it apart, measure your thrust washer and you know what to buy.

I should add, a thrust washer is monolithic. Same material all the way through. it's not like there is some thin layer of bronze. Bronze washers are sintered---made of pressed powder. They are porous and hold oil. That's why you use bronze. A Babbit bearing is a little different. You may have a thick layer of the babbit metal on a backer of a different material. But they don't have to be made that way. The thing you got does not look like sintered bronze and the application is inappropriate for a babbit bearing. In fact it's inappropriate for any type of bearing. It's pinned, remember? Try a magnet on it yet?. If it sticks you got a steel spacer.

The thrust washers are designated green (on the inside) and red, on the outside. The other sizes are different colors.
That thrust washer is coming apart for some reason. The thing he has doesn't look like bronze because it's all been worn off somehow. I have never seen anything like it so I could only guess as to how. I bet it isn't through coming apart either. I wouldn't use it unless you don't mind a bunch of extra metal floating around in your engine. Besides, when you see one that isn't coming apart and has been worn down and worn out, you will see that it is toast. The bronze colored bearing surface of the thrust washer does not denote the size. I don't think they are color coded. Why would the inside and outside washers be color coded green and red? They are the same part. Inappropriately pinned? Don't tell that to our front main bearings!

Sorry but our thrust washers are not monolithic. They ARE made out of two different metals. The one photoed above has just had one of the metals worn away. Sure, there is enough steel there for them to attract a magnet even when new but . . . .

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Old 03-12-2013, 10:50 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Ju View Post
Just a couple of observations regarding the RMS installation
When I first started as a BMW mechanic about twenty years ago, after having wrenched on Japanese bikes for the previous twenty years, I was taught to install the RMS flush with the case and bone dry on the sealing surface.
The flywheel side seal surface is cleaned and left completely dry as well, with the explanation given that some of the Teflon on the RMS will transfer to the seal surface on the flywheel forming a Teflon to Teflon seal.
I've never had one come back leaking, including the one I just installed a couple of months ago when I installed my lightened flywheel.
Can anybody else confirm these instructions ? Either from anecdotal evidence or some sort of Service Bulletin or BMW training classes.

Back to Tin Woodman's dilemma, I believe that leaving the seal sitting proud is the cause for the crank locking up, which will reveal itself with the magic marker check if I'm correct.
The seal's OD needs to be lightly oiled so that it can slide in without rolling rubber ridges back in this case. Just like all seal OD's made of rubber, it should be lightly oiled. It also helps to chamfer the seal boss edge as far as not rolling back the RMS's OD ridges.

About the only rubber OD on a seal that I don't oil is oil sight glasses on oilheads and whatnot. They are looking for ANY excuse to blow out. I lubricate them with quick evaporating contact cleaner and stick them in FAST before it drys. It helps melt the rubber in tight as it evaporates!
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:22 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
The seal's OD needs to be lightly oiled so that it can slide in without rolling rubber ridges back in this case. Just like all seal OD's made of rubber, it should be lightly oiled. It also helps to chamfer the seal boss edge as far as not rolling back the RMS's OD ridges.

About the only rubber OD on a seal that I don't oil is oil sight glasses on oilheads and whatnot. They are looking for ANY excuse to blow out. I lubricate them with quick evaporating contact cleaner and stick them in FAST before it drys. It helps melt the rubber in tight as it evaporates!
I agree on the lubing of the outside of the seal to aid installation. But I was talking about the actual seal to flywheel contact surface, not where the seal sits in the block. I guess I should have clarified that, just didn't think I'd have to.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:33 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Tin Woodman View Post
Thanks for the kick in the butt, Plaka. I shall get on with it. Checked with a magnet tonight when I got home - yep, it's steel alright. Good advice about marking the seal with a Sharpie to check for clearance - will try that tomorrow. Checked end play with existing washer - almost imperceptible and not measurable without a dial gauge, but it's there nonetheless.

I'm positive the inner thrust bearing is back on its pins, SS. Got it back on before I torqued or forced anything. Thing spins like a top with the flywheel back on (but without seal).

As always, grateful for the input.
You must have some clearance of there is no way for oil to get to the thrust edges of the bearing (behind that spacer). And that bearing will wear. it doesn't rotate but does take some hammering. There are longitudinal forces on the crank. Worth measuring.

I've been trying to think of some ways around the dial indicator. most of them are elaborate and not that accurate.

There is always dropping by a local mechanic or machine shop with the block and a cold 6 pack. The measurement only takes a moment and can be done on the counter if you hold the indicator base for the guy.

Or just buy an indicator. $50 will get you a decent one. Fowler is a good mid quality brand. You don't need a really good one, you don't use it enough. The mag base is used for all kinds of things, like checking wheel run out (make yourself up some indicator pointers for it out of rod) . You also do things to check fork alignment and fork tube run out with the dial indicator. Other wise it is not critical for the stuff you get into. You can set your valves with it to an unbelievable level of accuracy---but you got a chain cam drive so that's moot.

http://www.tooltopia.com/fowler-72-5...n=shopzilla_r1

I take back what I said before, looking at your picture again. The rear bearing and both "spacers" are stationary and the crank shoulder bears on one end of the stack, the flywheel shoulder bears on the other. Babbit bearing. Replace it. It'd be worth looking at the inner one.

Look closely at the surface of the flywheel that bears on that piece. It should be nice. if not, that must be dealt with. Numerous options, none costly.

Assembly lube on that when you build.

A piece of crud might have gotten in there and tore it up, or it could just be failing. usually crud in a babbit leaves long grooves. You could run it in a pinch but you have a couple of months of snow left...
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:39 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Kai Ju View Post
I agree on the lubing of the outside of the seal to aid installation. But I was talking about the actual seal to flywheel contact surface, not where the seal sits in the block. I guess I should have clarified that, just didn't think I'd have to.
That teflon transfer would have to happen aweful quick. I always crank a fresh build with the ignition off to bring up the oil pressure before I fire it for the first time. Three 10 second bursts gets my oil light out.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:47 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Kai Ju View Post
I agree on the lubing of the outside of the seal to aid installation. But I was talking about the actual seal to flywheel contact surface, not where the seal sits in the block. I guess I should have clarified that, just didn't think I'd have to.
At first they had you soaking it in oil and then they had you install it dry. I install them dry with no problems. It says to do it that way in a service bulletin.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:02 AM   #149
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That teflon transfer would have to happen aweful quick. I always crank a fresh build with the ignition off to bring up the oil pressure before I fire it for the first time. Three 10 second bursts gets my oil light out.
If you are starting with a completely cleaned block, let me warn readers that it can take a lot more than 30 seconds to prime the pump. Way more than 30 seconds. I know from priming the pump before I connect the timing chain and install the top end. Sometimes it takes a lot of way faster turning than the starter will ever turn that cam to get the pump primed. BTDT many times but I prime the pump to the big end journals before I even put the top ends on. That way I can crank the engine a half turn and light the engine up with full oil pressure instantly.

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Old 03-13-2013, 12:07 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaka View Post
That teflon transfer would have to happen aweful quick. I always crank a fresh build with the ignition off to bring up the oil pressure before I fire it for the first time. Three 10 second bursts gets my oil light out.
There shouldn't be anything but splash lubrication near that seal. I can't imagine the seal withstanding 70 plus psi without leaking profusely. And I don't know how quickly the transfer takes place, if at all. Hence my question about anecdotal evidence or some sort of publication that is credible.
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