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Old 02-07-2013, 09:07 AM   #16
Tin Woodman OP
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Bmwrench, thanks for the explanation. I'm curious - what's the point of this two-piece design? As Bill suggested, why not machine it as one piece? Kind of suggests the quill is replaceable. You mentioned you've removed these quills before on /7s - I assume it was to replace with a new one.

I guess my question is can my camshaft be repaired? I'm already sensing it would be better to replace it. Thanks again for your insight.
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:11 AM   #17
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:55 AM   #18
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Tim,

How about fitting a standard 308 degree cam to your 600. They must be so easy to find even in small front seal size (fitted until sometime in 1975 I think)

I have read that part of the pinging problems with 600s was the choice of cam that BMW fitted, Only to the 600.

Maybe someone else has direct experience


You can have my 308 degree small seal cam for the price of postage form the UK
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:08 AM   #19
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Never ever too old, Charlie.

Many times "new" BMW designs would be evolved from previous parts. On the /2 engine the camshaft is gear-driven and also has a magneto hanging off the front end. The centrifugal advance (etc) is attached via a taper and IIRC there is a multi-step tapdance to getting the ignition set up which involves loosening and aligning things. The pressed-in drive quill makes sense in the context of being a /2 carryover, and makes some sense in that the later "Beancan" designs didn't even use that quill.

We'll see if there is a way to salvage this. Even if the camshaft needs to be replaced, I'm thinking it can be done without engine removal and complete teardown.

Here are links to a couple of /2 cam/magneto Fiche pages from MAX BMW, FYI:

http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fic...png?v=08102012

http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fic...png?v=08102012

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Bill Harris screwed with this post 02-07-2013 at 11:13 AM
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:45 AM   #20
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I have some spare cam shafts but none for R60es. Some may be small seal. And I don't have them here but next time I visit my stuff in storage I'll try to remember to look at them. I've never heard of this two piece cam shaft deal before. Of course it may of just not come up?

I don't think you can use the larger engine cam shaft. I know it doesn't work the other way and suspect it won't work for you either. So you need the correct part. Unless maybe a large seal number could be used with a different timing cover. But It sounds like too much change anyway.

If these two pieces are pressed together and they have merely worked loose it sounds to me like they could be made to work again. I'd even say weld them together. But spare parts should be readily available.
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:00 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Woodman View Post
Bmwrench, thanks for the explanation. I'm curious - what's the point of this two-piece design? As Bill suggested, why not machine it as one piece? Kind of suggests the quill is replaceable. You mentioned you've removed these quills before on /7s - I assume it was to replace with a new one.

I guess my question is can my camshaft be repaired? I'm already sensing it would be better to replace it. Thanks again for your insight.
I don't think the cam could be accurately held for grinding the quill in place. Cam grinding is a rough and scary thing to watch. The quill is not available separately. I was scheming to do billet camshafts at the time and needed to see just how BMW had machined the hole in the end of the camshaft.

I would consider Loctiting the quill in place. The tricky part would be figuring out where to place it to get the ignition timing right. There have to be tons of used cams out there-I remember seeing drawers full of them when Bob's was still actively selling used parts. I wouldn't hesitate using a 308 in an R60; one of the guys at Bob's is running one in his R60/5, and I have installed R75 and R80 top ends on R60s using the shorter cam.
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:18 PM   #22
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Disston, you could be right. While welding may be a bit aggressive, I wonder if the parts can be brazed. Of course, I'd have to get the alignment right - I wonder if there are index marks on the quill and the camshaft. Then again, a new camshaft may be the answer. Bmwrench, I just saw your post - hadn't considered Loctite. What a novel idea! Of course, I'd have to figure out how to pull the quill out first.

By the way everyone, I am amazed by the support I'm getting - you guys don't even know me and you're already offering me parts. I obviously came to the right place.

Question, if I install a used camshaft, what are the potential consequences and issues to be concerned about? For example, will I need to install new cam followers? Should I check the runout on the tip?

Finally, a question for Chasbmw from England - is that a photo of the Khyber Pass?

Something tells me I'll be solving this problem sooner than later - I pulled the transmission this afternoon when I got home from work in anticipation of pulling the crankshaft. What was supposed to be a 'nearing completion' project has suddenly reversed direction.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:38 PM   #23
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Shouldn't be that hard to fix. Unless there are some sorta index marks to re-index everything on the quill that it couldbe indexed by trail-and-error by eyeballing the ignition timing point vs the slots in the points plate. And you could secure the quill by Loctite and dutch-pinning. Still a crap-shot though, and it may be better to hunt up a good used camshaft. Evaluation is easy: if it looks good, it is. Ditto on the lifters. On the /5 you probably won't need to pull the flywheel to get at the oil pump rotor-- the keyway end of the camshaft will fit through the case. Tricky, but do-able (unless you were planning to do the Rear Main Seal anyway, then go for it. Remember to BLOCK THE CRANK if the flywheel comes off.

Drop the oil pan, remove the pushrods/rocker arms and the cam can be weaseled out from the bottomside without needing to pull the cylinders. Worn as that chain is you will likely need a new crankshaft sprocket and borrow or steal a good puller. Pucker up, the crank sprocket is ~$150 nowadays. If the budget doesn't allow for that, just replace the chain and plan replace the new chain sooner (30K miles instead of 50K, no biggie) along with a new $procket later.

Sounds horrendous, but it's not that bad.

The "nearing completion" has not reversed, it's taken a side-trip. Better to have found out now that later...

And a bunch of people learnt something new...

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Old 02-07-2013, 10:58 PM   #24
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What you're looking for......

http://tinyurl.com/b6dlcpj


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Old 02-07-2013, 11:15 PM   #25
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I changed cam shafts once with out taking the flywheel off. I still think it was one of the luckiest days I ever had in either wrenching and/or Love. I'm still batting O in Love so I guess I'm a good wrench.

Look for a used cam shaft. The lifters you have are reusable if the bottom faces are not pitted.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:41 AM   #26
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Wicked

The pragmatic answer is to fit a second hand small seal 308 cam, don't get influenced by the guys here that would have you playing around with loctite etc etc........they just want to see if it might work


If you were to go down that route then by fitting an alternator mounted ignition you would then sidestep the issue of getting the quill placed in the right place for ignition timing, but alternator ignitions are not cheap.

The photo is of the Khyber pass, well spotted, Iv been loading a shed load of my old photos onto photobucket.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:55 AM   #27
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Dang it Chas. We did really want to see if it would work. You know how to ruin a good time, don't you?
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:49 PM   #28
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It's a long weekend here and I will dive into this little project in a few hours - should be ample photos by Sunday.

Kai Ju, your offer is tempting and only a short drive up the I-5! I'll check out the local market first for a used cam, etc.

Think I'll take this opportunity to re-do the rear seal. Don't worry, Bill - I've been warned about blocking the crank. Sounds like death if you skip this step. Any other booby traps anyone can think of before I start the tear down? If I'm taking off the rockers, might as well at least pull the heads. I'm attempting this all without removing the engine case from the frame. Am I kidding myself?

Disston, good point about the valve lifters.

I've got some reading to do re: 308 cams - was this an emissions issue? Performance? Pinging?

Finally, and on a totally unrelated subject, what should my approach be to unleaded gas? I hear adding a small amount of avgas at each fill up will solve the problem - does anyone actually do that? Or do you recommend a conversion? I'm sure this subject has been covered a million times here and you're all rolling your eyes. . .

This is going to take a lot of beer.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:56 PM   #29
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misunderstanding

that wasn't my cam, merely a link and picture of one on e-bay.
What's nice about it, besides condition, is that it comes with the lifters, sprocket, chain, guides and oil pump. Everything you need to swap it over.
Sorry if I gave the impression it was mine. ( I would display it a bit more orderly if it was )
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:58 PM   #30
Kai Ju
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Originally Posted by disston View Post
Dang it Chas. We did really want to see if it would work. You know how to ruin a good time, don't you?
maybe we can still watch him pull the cam without pulling anything else apart. I would certainly try.
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