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Old 02-28-2013, 07:55 PM   #76
Tin Woodman OP
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nothing to report

Cleaned up a few parts tonight then lined them up like M&Ms - product of a regimented youth. . .

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Old 02-28-2013, 08:34 PM   #77
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Sometimes, parts just look too good to put back on a bike and get dirtied up...

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Old 03-01-2013, 05:40 PM   #78
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Thanks for that, SS. Grooves seem fine. One question, though - the manual advises leaving the carbon intact above the top ring. Other forums advise hot tanking the pistons to remove all carbon. What side of the fence are you on?

And on a totally different subject which I have already flogged to death, tonight while installing new seals on the chain cover, curiosity overcame me and I tried pulling the quill out of the old cam. With minimal effort, here's the result -

You don't need to be totally super exact, you just need to be close enough not to run out of points plate adjustment.



The project continues to lurch forward at a glacial pace. . .

If you use some red stud locker on that quill it isn't coming apart again without a torch. Do file a slight flat on the insertion shaft to prevent hydraulic lock on insertion.

You would want to borrow a camshaft to figure out the alignment although I suppose you could figure out how to pull the data from an otherwise intact bike.

You have a table saw so make up a pair of V blocks to rest the cam in and use an indicator (the real thing or a wood one) to capture the relationship of the cam on the tip to any lobe, Then transfer that relationship to your cam on assembly.
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:13 PM   #79
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Plaka, your engineering prowess is duly noted. You've obviously thought this through and your comments are logical. Unfortunately while removing the cam sprocket, I damaged the tip beyond repair assuming the cam was scrap. Happily, I bought a replacement from an inmate and its arrival is imminent.

Tonight, I cleaned up the engine case in anticipation of installing a new main seal tomorrow. Happened to notice date inscribed by a BMW worker on Wednesday, August 30th, 1972. Wonder what the point of that was -

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Old 03-02-2013, 02:07 AM   #80
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Happened to notice date inscribed by a BMW worker on Wednesday, August 30th, 1972. Wonder what the point of that was -
Old World craftsmanship. On my two gas tanks, the pinstriper "signed" each one-- my '73 Toaster tanks has an upside-down "V", which is a Cyrillic (Slavic alphabet) "L" and my 22L tank is signed with a letter shaped like an "alpha".

Someone was very proud of the job they just did.

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Old 03-02-2013, 07:13 AM   #81
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Cyrillic characters

It's all coming full circle. In 1971, my parents, who were of modest means, decided to take the family on an exotic vacation before my sister and I left the family nest. They settled on Greece probably because my dad, an airline worker, scored some free tickets. This was when foreign countries were foreign as opposed to the homogenized travel experience of today.

Current research tells us that adolescence is the period of maximum dopamine in our brains, hence heightened experiences and sensations. Apparently that's why our teenage memories are the most vivid, first loves are the most tragic and personal tastes that are developed when we're 17 tend to follow us throughout our lives. If you liked the Grateful Dead when you were 16, you probably like them now.

Athens that summer was blisteringly hot, polluted, crowded, fast paced, violent, exciting, bewildering - an aural and visual assault. My dopamine-drenched brain noticed a tremendous number of odd looking motorcycles with strange looking motors and weird front forks. I didn't realize at the time that I had been infected by 'the bug'.

My parents, mostly non-drinkers, let their teenage son order retsina at every restaurant stop - maybe they thought it was pop. I knew exactly what I was doing - I had figured out the Cyrillic alphabet.
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Old 03-02-2013, 05:19 PM   #82
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Plaka, your engineering prowess is duly noted. You've obviously thought this through and your comments are logical. Unfortunately while removing the cam sprocket, I damaged the tip beyond repair assuming the cam was scrap. Happily, I bought a replacement from an inmate and its arrival is imminent.

Tonight, I cleaned up the engine case in anticipation of installing a new main seal tomorrow. Happened to notice date inscribed by a BMW worker on Wednesday, August 30th, 1972. Wonder what the point of that was -
A possible explanation of the date would be an internal factory function, possibly having to do with QA and lot control. All the prduction from one day/shift/manufacturing cell might be but in a bin and the bin dated. Some parts get pulled through out the day and individually dated then sent off to QA. The QA samples get 100% inspection and if the samples are approved then the entire lot is approved. The samples get returned to that days bin resulting in some parts having dates and some not. It's a bit crude compared to todays methods (SPC). SPC was only just coming into widespread use in the early 70's, The US auto industry was ignoring it while the Japenese were using it to cut costs and make better cars. it had been around since the 40's.

Just a guess.

I'm watching this bit with the cam because I too had always thought the part monolithic. I had a bent cam nose on my /5 resulting in the classic double timing image. Understanding that the only fixess were replacing the cam or going to electronic ignition, I went with electronic. Needed it anyway for the dual plugs. I still have the short block up in the attic and it still has a bent cam nose. So I'm paying attention. Maybe I could pull a good nose out of an otherwise trashed (and cheap) cam to do a repair. I have no doubt whatsoever about red stud locker on a good sliding fit (or even a not so good one). It is commonly used to retain repair sleeves on shafts and in pullys, repair sleeves for bearings, bearings themselves, etc.


Anyone need a /5 short block?

Bondo is great stuff for fast one off fixtures. Put a good cam in some short V-blocks tacked to a board, lube it a bit and then put a bondo blob under one cam lobe and under the cam profile of the nose. Let harden, remove the cam and you have captured the relationship of those two surfaces exactly.

If you are getting a used cam from someone I would check the runout of the nose in your v blocks before installing it. it might have been good in the previous engine but inadvertently tapped on something since and now it's off. if it's way off you could try some straitening or simply plan you ignition strategy accordingly.


I have no particular engineering prowess although I do design (and build) machines. My styles is very conservative with a heavy emphasis on serviceability and ergonomics. My experience is in small machines for cleanrooms----you never want to take them to the shop for servicing and they must create no particles, and very large machines for the meat/dairy industry----you need to be able to sanitize them thoroughly despite being the size of a bulldozer. Service of a worn part has to be very fast, the plants run 24/7 and everything is tight and cold. Because the rooms are refrigerated they are as small as possible with everything jammed in. Go where I have gone and you won't eat commercially processed meat again. I have more minor experience in a number of manufacturing environments, mostly plastic molding, medical devices and whatnot.

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Old 03-02-2013, 09:12 PM   #83
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Plaka, the Germans must have embraced high manufacturing standards years ago because I recall reading an article describing the findings of Rolls Royce engineers when they dismantled a captured enemy aircraft engine during WW II - virtually all the dimensions of critical components were exactly in the middle of tolerances. The British engineers were puzzled how the Germans could be so consistently precise when even Rolls Royce couldn't do it.

Speaking of precision, Snowbum describes a procedure for straightening out a bent cam tip with a hammer - he suggests one doesn't attempt it without substantial experience. Sounds scary.

I like your technique for replicating relative positions using Bondo as a mold - very creative. As usual, necessity is the mother of invention.

And finally, your comments concerning meat processing struck a responsive chord - I recall a friend of mine returning from a visit to a rendering plant. He looked like he had seen a ghost and all he could mutter was, "Man, don't feed your kids hot dogs."
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:03 PM   #84
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I had the double timing image problem. I learned the hammer repair method from Duane Ausherman's Web Site. http://w6rec.com/

Duane avoids the reason for the double image and merely presents the method of repair. It worked rather well but took a couple of days actually because I was of course timid with banging on the tip of the cam shaft with a hammer. I used a long brass drift against the advance unit.

Eventually the timing image was at only one place on the flywheel and my bike had a much better personality.

It also makes more sense now knowing that the tip is inserted. May also be more prone to rocking in the bore? But as Duane says it's not really too important why this works, it works is all that really maters.

Charlie
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:03 PM   #85
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Plaka, the Germans must have embraced high manufacturing standards years ago because I recall reading an article describing the findings of Rolls Royce engineers when they dismantled a captured enemy aircraft engine during WW II - virtually all the dimensions of critical components were exactly in the middle of tolerances. The British engineers were puzzled how the Germans could be so consistently precise when even Rolls Royce couldn't do it.

Speaking of precision, Snowbum describes a procedure for straightening out a bent cam tip with a hammer - he suggests one doesn't attempt it without substantial experience. Sounds scary.

I like your technique for replicating relative positions using Bondo as a mold - very creative. As usual, necessity is the mother of invention.

And finally, your comments concerning meat processing struck a responsive chord - I recall a friend of mine returning from a visit to a rendering plant. He looked like he had seen a ghost and all he could mutter was, "Man, don't feed your kids hot dogs."
The way the Germans did it was simple. They graded every part. This is simple to do with go/no-go gauges. Suppose you wanted to grade some shafts according to diameter. You took a block of steel and bored a stepped hole in it. Then you simpley fitted every shaft to the hole after it was made. If it went in the first step but not the second, it was in spec or given a particular grade. Multiple steps in the hole or multiple gauges are used to establish a number of different tolerance grades. After that you either only use one grade or match up grades. BMW was still doing it with our bikes. There are 3 grades of cylinders (A,B,C) and 3 corresponding grades of pistons. Woe to he who mismatches the grades.

The Germans were (and are) very slick with logistics. They were able to pull off things like grading every part and still maintain production volumes. I imagine they were also able to transfer a grading system to field operations so repairs came out properly. During the war they were using a lot of slave labor which freed up proper Aryan Blood to train as skilled factory labor. They had manpower and rabid nationalism on their side. Not nice people but you couldn't argue with their technology.

The Russians had (and have!) a different style. Machinery is poorly designed and as poorly made. But their field people are brilliant, inventive and extremely resourceful. They find a way to keep anything running. I worked with a new immigrant once. Middle aged, had mostly worked in a train (electric streetcar) shop. Taught himself English listening to the OJ trial on the radio. His work area was heaped with every sort of junk imaginable. Stuff he found in thrift shops, dumpsters, lying in alleys. Total mess. But he could keep anything running, including things he didn't know much about. Two big problems tho'--- stuff he fixed didn't stay fixed. He'd leaned that one in the train shop. If stuff didn't break you didn't have a job. He made sure he was always needed---and of course because it was production equipment it was always a crisis. Then he couldn't get the whole ISO9000 thing. He couldn't understand why I would buy registered thermocouples when he'd cobbled up a thermocouple welder out of an old spot welder and G-d only knows what else. He really couldn't understand why I was so pissed at him for wasting time making his welder when I had a bunch of other work needed doing. it was an interesting (albeit painful) look into another mechanical culture and the sort of mind operating there.

A saw a rendering machine once. 10' refrigerated horizontal drum rotating over a huge heated vat. Scrap went into the vat and as the drum rotated it would get coated. The fat on the drum quickly hardened and was scraped off by a doctor blade into a smaller vat. From there is was compressed into blocks and shipped to China. One guy said it was for use in pet food but I got the feeling nobody really wanted to know. it was not USDA approved for human consumption but they don't got the USDA in China.

I built a sausage line once. long row of 20' high bins with a feed screw in the bottom of each. An over head conveyor with swinging gates loaded the hoppers with various materials. They were then fed out the screws onto a low conveyer that was on a scale. From thee the recipe fed a Seydelmann bowl chopper, spices were added by hand. Output of the Seydelmann was rolling bins which were dumped into a stuffer in another part of the plant. (see Reiser, I was an AMFEC guy specializing in conveyers and some mixers) Ecolab makes a line of disinfecting products for the industry. Their stuff gets sprayed on everything all the time, especially the product. The name of the game is Salmonella control. it just gets mixed right in. It doesn't have to be declared as a food additive, and isn't.

My sis-in-law buys a cow every year and splits it with me.. They come from a small local slaughterhouse that she has inspected and approved, they lived idyllic lives in lush pastures, etc. etc. Good meat, a little tough. Good enough for me.

I saw part of an RR auto service manual once. it called for replacing all the hoses and a bunch of other rubber every 2 years. That's the British, not real durable (esp. rubber and seals), replace them a lot. I suppose if you can afford an RR you don't blink at a $1500 service every other year.

I'll have to look up Bobs procedure on the cam noses. I can see some work with a very small brass hammer. Imagine I would want to pull it however to spare the bearings.

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Old 03-03-2013, 05:40 AM   #86
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I had the double timing image problem. I learned the hammer repair method from Duane Ausherman's Web Site. http://w6rec.com/

Duane avoids the reason for the double image and merely presents the method of repair...

Charlie
But if the cam quill is pressed in and loosens that may explain why it can go eccentric (I've always assumed it to bumped prior to installation) and that tapping on it is a not-good idea. Straightening a bent shaft by tapping with a brass or copper hammer is perfectly valid.

The new things you learn with these old tractors...

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Old 03-03-2013, 05:52 AM   #87
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Double image issue

It's possible I've confused Ausherman's and Snowbum's technical articles - apologies if I've misassigned credit for this technique.

Plaka, interesting insight into relative cultural approaches to engineering. With globalization and universal access to best manufacturing practices, it seems there is little distinction between countries now. Could be a good thing.

Speaking of cross-pollination of engineering approaches, I found it interesting to note it was supposedly a British team that helped Nissan set up their plant to produce the 510. The Japanese merely refined the Austin designs which they had apparently been 'borrowing' since the 1920s.

I guess I like airheads because they are original and simple. When they tried to replace it with the in-line K engine, it ultimately failed I think, in part, due to consumers' nostalgia. Reminiscent of Porsche's attempt to kill the 911 with the front-engined 928 - a better product perhaps, but too radical a departure from the familiar design.

Anyway, I'd better make some progress on my antique today. Really want to get it back on the road soon.
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Old 03-03-2013, 04:38 PM   #88
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But if the cam quill is pressed in and loosens that may explain why it can go eccentric (I've always assumed it to bumped prior to installation) and that tapping on it is a not-good idea. Straightening a bent shaft by tapping with a brass or copper hammer is perfectly valid.

The new things you learn with these old tractors...

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I'd think if the thing is loose in the shaft the repair wouldn't last. Dunno...
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Old 03-03-2013, 04:56 PM   #89
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It's possible I've confused Ausherman's and Snowbum's technical articles - apologies if I've misassigned credit for this technique.
Believe you me, nobody here can remember all the stuff in the Bum Table Of Contents. I can't find stuff there sometimes when I know it is there.

I have a fantasy of becoming the Bum's Editor. Like a real job. Would be full time too.

And Frankly Duane is only a little better. As far as being able to find stuff. At least his site is not as large.

Anton's site is the best organized.

There is a new Web page I recently came across. I mean somebody pointed to it, I didn't find this on my own. I think it is Italian or German but there is translation available on the Web site, look at the top of the page and you'll see some buttons for translating. http://www.luke3d.org/

I haven't read very much of this new page. Maybe somebody here knows more about it and who this is?
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Old 03-03-2013, 05:11 PM   #90
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Bill,

I'm not sure you are meaning what I think you mean but I will say this anyway.

We now know the cam shaft has a quill in the front. It is inserted into what appears to be a round hole so it can be rotated on purpose or by accident or mistake. The only function of the quill is to locate the advance unit by the position of the D shape. It would seem that the quill can be rotated some and there still be some correction made by rotating the points plate. The points will still need their amount of dwell and they will open and close two times per revolution of the cam shaft when each high point of the advance unit acts on the points. These two points are 180* apart. It may be possible to have rotational position of the quill so far off that correction will be difficult. But it will not cause a double image if it is straight. So the double image comes from the quill being bent, cocked in the bore, or the lobes of the advance unit unevenly worn. Regardless of cause the fix is the same.

Charlie
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