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Old 02-06-2013, 05:53 PM   #61
showkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafn8td View Post
My thought is why not improve what it does best, MPG. It will never be a powerful motor no matter what you do. My KTM with a competitors product, cans and a filter picked up both mpg and about 10 hp. Do that and I'm in.

Dyno or guess on the 10 HP gain...........more power by a large % and increase mpg are generally "opposing forces":
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:46 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafn8td View Post
My thought is why not improve what it does best, MPG. It will never be a powerful motor no matter what you do. My KTM with a competitors product, cans and a filter picked up both mpg and about 10 hp. Do that and I'm in.
Every bike is different; some are so far off in their fueling from the factory that you can get power and mpg, but that is certainly not the case most of the time. I tuned a Super Duke and got another 13 hp out of it, but I guarantee the mpg went down b/c the thing was so incredibly lean it was starving for fuel and I added a lot of fuel to the map; the customer said it was a whole new bike though and was grinning from ear to ear after a short test ride. I can't change the over all characteristics of the motor just with fueling, all I do is enhance them. I take what's already there and make it better. But like dduelin was talking about, the bore, stroke, cam timing, valve sizes, intake length and diameter, and airbox have more to do with the engines power output characteristics than anything.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:08 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by dduelin View Post
Honda likely built in the 6400 rpm "hard" rev limiter in order to limit piston speed to less than 3500 feet per minute in the interest of long service life and high volumetric efficiency. It is hard to efficiently fill undersquare engines beyond a healthy midrange. No doubt it could rev slightly more but the inlet design, valve timing, and fueling are designed to maximize efficiency in the low and mid rev range and spinning it faster moves the package further from that ideal besides elevating stress on bearings and connecting rods. My opinion is if we change the map let's look for a little more torque and give up a little mpg.
Aren't the NC motors essentially 1/2 a Honda fit motor?

I think trying to tune the NC for power is trying to undo what the designers spent all their time on tweaking - efficiency.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:12 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by ph0rk View Post
Aren't the NC motors essentially 1/2 a Honda fit motor?

No.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:04 AM   #65
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Actually, there are several articles floating around on the WWW that state that the motor for the new Honda NC700S & X Bikes is in fact 1/2 of the 4-cylinder mill used in the Honda Fit automobile ... now, they didn't just "cut" the engine in two LOL, but NC motor was engineered from the Fit motor!
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:16 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by ZZ-R Rider View Post
Actually, there are several articles floating around on the WWW that state that the motor for the new Honda NC700S & X Bikes is in fact 1/2 of the 4-cylinder mill used in the Honda Fit automobile ... now, they didn't just "cut" the engine in two LOL, but NC motor was engineered from the Fit motor!
That's my understanding too.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:06 AM   #67
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From Ash on Bikes:


"Now money is tight, fuel costs 6 a gallon and once again motorcycles are being looked to for economy reasons rather than as luxury goods. Honda saw this coming with its clever NC platform, the basis of the opinion-polarising Honda NC700X and less controversial Integra scooter, notable mostly for using a twin-cylinder motor which in effect is half of a Honda Jazz car engine." http://www.ashonbikes.com/content/honda-nc700s-review


(About the NC700s, but the motor is the same).

The Jazz is the Fit over there.
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:51 PM   #68
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Just about everything in technical detail that appeared for the last year on the NC700s was given out at the world press debut and it was there that the NC project leader Uchida made this remark: "I got a hacksaw and cut a Jazz engine in half, but it didn't really run very well so we had to put some more work into the NC700X". It was a throw away remark made half in jest but it has been endlessly repeated because it was made in a room full of journalists and it made it into print and onto the web. That in itself does not make it any more true than it was at the time it was said.

If you understand engines you know that the NC engine and the Jazz/Fit/City engines share virtually nothing in detail. The 270 degree crankshaft arrangement is different, the valve train is different, the fuel delivery system is different, the electrical generating system is different, the water pump is driven differently, etc, etc.

The only detail that is the same is the bore diameter of the 1339 cc auto engine. Other commonalities in the relationship between the NC and the Jazz is the oversquare dimension of the bore and stroke which is common in auto engines (and old fashioned v twins of all makes) and the approximate 1/2 displacement of a 1.3 liter Jazz engine sold in the EC and USA. To date there have been a total of 10 engines available in the Jazz worldwide and the displacement varies from 1246 cc to 1496 cc.

It isn't "half a Jazz engine".
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dduelin screwed with this post 02-10-2013 at 07:15 PM
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:52 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by dduelin View Post
If you understand engines you know that the NC engine and the Jazz/Fit/City engines share virtually nothing in detail.


It isn't "half a Jazz engine".

Yup, it was a bad Japanese joke. One thing it does have in common with the Fit is that it's slow as hell and doesn't get the mpg's it should.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:17 AM   #70
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Or the whole story is a BS fabrication troll tail. .
This is what I'm thinking because there is no such thing as a NC700C.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:34 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by CoffeeBaron View Post
I didn't intend to rock anybodys boat with my opinion, however it was just that- it was my observations on what I feel is a good bike-a different take by a major manufacturer-my personal favourite at that-trying to create something different.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CGameProgrammer View Post
This is what I'm thinking because there is no such thing as a NC700C.

He's in the UK and had no intention of buying one, it was a loaner and probably a 700S.

Funny how bunched panties get over a typo.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:59 AM   #72
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Laugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryboy View Post
He's in the UK and had no intention of buying one, it was a loaner and probably a 700S.

Funny how bunched panties get over a typo.
No less funny than you ignoring the multitude of real world NC700X fuel mileage reports to only refer to one from a journalist who wrote his tester got 47 mpg when ridden 85 to 100 mph which pretty much squares with my experience after 10,000 miles of ownership. It still gets great mileage at speeds your bike can't even achieve.
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:54 PM   #73
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Its such a cool bike and that half a Fit engine is amazing
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:45 PM   #74
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Ok this half a fit engine thing.

The designer, after getting a brief probably decided to try something "on the cheap" just to see what would happen.

Since many engines often start life as a single cylinder prototype that is built from the ground up and is handmade and expensive, he probably thought that since there is a 4 cylinder engine out there [1.3 L L13A i-DSI fit/jazz] that meets world wide emissions requirements. is reliable, and is tested and was already the subject of thousands of hours of development, he might just get the Honda car boys to send over a few blocks pistons heads etc and start with that.

Gets the boys to get a copy of the CAD drawings from the Car division as well and then proceeded to send it through the 6 axis mill to modify the original block / heads so that they had a "hack" to run on the engine dyno to see how it went.

It was probably rough, vibey and snatchy. (too much character).

SO anyway, they then decided to run it through some modeling software to confirm what they found, model a few engine configurations, make a few configurations of cranks and balancers that looked good, mounted them in a a few chassis hacks and sent the test riders out to play... err...thoroughly test.

They come back with feedback, "feels like a sewing machine, too much character etc.

Back to the engine dyno where more tweaks and mods were made to get the fuel air charge correct on both cylinders and vwalla..

After only another 500 hours you have an engine that probably has the same combustion chamber shape as the jazz / fit and uses the same pistons, pins, anti friction coatings, timing chain specs and bearings but that's it.

They just started out with the idea of using as many parts as they could from an excisting product but ended up using only a few.

As the press have reported, they even went to extent of having different intake length for each cylinder, different cam profiles for each cylinder just to make sure each cylinder had the same combustion efficiency.

I am sure that if that was a European brand it would be hailed as amazing attention to detail, given pages of technical descriptions in every motor mag available, gushed over and the price tag would be 50% higher.

All that seems to be circulated in this case is "we cut a Honda jazz / fit motor in half"

Marketing Mr Honda, Marketing.

So in case you missed it..They engine has been designed to be most fuel efficient, and it is, in the range that most people use it 90% of the time.

If you are the 10% that ride a bike between 80 and 100mph all day and like to rev the thing at 5K because that;s what you learned to do with highly strung "my HP is biggter than yours" bikes then you will have to unlearn that.

If your ego depends on the "aura" around the bike then it's not for you either. No one is going to think you are Casey Stoner or a "rebel".

What Honda have done is take a bike that is pretty much on par with an R100 of decades ago and applied modern technology to make it far more efficient (cost and fuel wise) instead of more powerful and just as expensive.

I seem to remember that things like R100 and old 4 cylinder Goldwings were considered touring bikes and traveled vast distances in their time. Funny how this bike with the same power and less weight and way better fuel economy at legal speeds is considered an urban commuter these days.

We have all gone soft.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:52 PM   #75
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To the op

I got very similar mileage figures to yours during extensive road testing last year. There is definately a huge difference if you tuck in behind a fairing and drop the revs. I toured Newfoundland and quebec on one and had plenty of time to check that stuff.
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