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Old 05-18-2013, 01:02 PM   #271
roger 04 rt
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
I guess that as my bike cruises at 4500 rpm, at 70 mph, very little fuel is added on the freeway. Other ranges, the onlu answer I can add, is that the fuel additions are inside the BMS-K " margin of operation", as other why, it should not show, and agree with fuel calculations...... I'm stumped, but can only report what I see.
The areas that have small amount of fuel added (single digit percent) are most likely the areas that didn't take much fuel to get to 13.5 (8% addition nominally) or 13.2 (10% nominally). Where there are very big numbers (see next comments) I suspect that the SAS is adding air.

Therefore a reasonable next step is to disable SAS by unplugging the connector or plugging up the hose itself and then riding for a few tanks of fuel.

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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
I am admitting defeat Terry. I am sorry I have been such a stubborn individual, and to all that have rolled their eyelids backwards, please accept my apologies. The SAS is in fact alive and well, on the 8GS, of that I am convinced.. That out of the way, I will now focus on how to disable it, in a good workable fashion. After reading all the info, I too believe that it will cause a false reading of the Lambda. The question is though, how much, and how bad. I think we can all agree that for air, or should I say O2 to work enhancing the burned mixture, thus enhancing power, and efficiency of the motor, it has to be combusted. There were a few things in Joel's post that I disagreed with, and without starting a fight, this issue was one of them. Afterburners belong on a jet engine ( of which subject I know quite a bit of) not on bikes. So in order for that extra shot of air to help in the power equation, it simply has to be combusted. It is in fact not, so it is not, when active, confusing the fueling, as it is now a fourth power in the matter. ( KMS-K.....PC-5......AT..... and now the SAS) I believe that as long as the algorithm in the software is in control, you can mesh those pieces ( BMS-K, and SAS) but when you then inject third party boxes, like the DJ PC-5/AT, then you are going to be off. I am quite stumped that DJ has no inclusion on this matter, as it clearly is affected, and they pride them self on being the power king of boxes. So with that out of the way, let's focus on what is happening. Assuming that those two holes are in fact direct paths to the exhaust side on the chamber..... I offer the following assessment. When the SAS system is active, ambient air is sucked into the exhaust system, somewhere just prior to the headers. That is now causing the O2 sensor to read falsely, if we regard to that as " combusted" mix. The O2 sensor in reality simply reads...well..... ehhhh.... O2. no matter where it comes from. But the problem arises when in fact, not all that air ( mix) is combusted. Lets take my case for example. An AFR to be maintained of 13.2 at the measuring point say 3-4 feet aft of the SAS injection.... mathematically the air prior to the SAS would have to be lower AFR, as the SAS injection will raise the AFR. So how much lower..... 13.0.....12.5...... I have no clue. But as non combusted air is worthless in regards to power, or control, I have no use for it, as I have already broken the first part of the EPA chain, bu removing the Charcoal Canister. The aspects to perhaps become aware of is how often, and when the SAS is active. I would like to take a step further, and rather than discover that, simply skip that step, as I have deemed the SAS unnecessary....and perhaps detrimental. So I intend to safe the fuel add tables of the PC-5/AT, zero it out, and plug that line to the SAS. Ride, and discover the change in behavior of the overall handling of the bike, and how the PC-5/AT compensates. Howsthat for a turnaround......
At 14.7:1 there is almost no O2 in the exhaust . At 13.2 to 13.8 there is even less than that. Therefore small amount of added air will lead to a large increase in the AFR the PCV sees. (Remember those 18% numbers we talked about a few pages back?) I strongly suspect that any number more than 10-12% in the Trim table is incorrect (other than the "hop" numbers).

Here would be my plan of attack.

1. Save your current tables.
2. Set the 2, 5;1250, 1500 AFR targets to zero so that it doesn't adjust.
3. Set the Trims for those values to zero also.
4. Disable SAS
5. Take any Trim cell that is great than 10 and revert it to 10.
6. Ride for a while and see what happens. You can always to back having saved the tables.

EDIT: Also, I would reduce the maximum trim to 15% so that you don't get one cell going out of bounds. Even with your exhaust mods, I doubt any cell will need more than a 15% trim to get to 13.2-5. Your tuner stopped at 10% for the WOT cells.

roger 04 rt screwed with this post 05-18-2013 at 03:22 PM
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Old 05-18-2013, 02:39 PM   #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm
Are you saying the ignition advance and curve is the same for a 650gs and a F800gs?
Misunderstanding: talking about OEM settings definitely not!
They are deeeeply different...
I've just said both of us reflashed our ECU with the same modified setup.
The target was different: he was looking for maximum performance, and I was for an optimization and valuable increasing of performance - so, we decided to cooperate in order to obtain the best result, trying at the same time to understand how are the different camshafts working on the same sw.
So, the results came together and are actually very fine.
I'm running with an average of 22 km/l (up to you to convert the units) and in first gear I've to be careful not to go WOT otherwise I'm going to brutally wheelie.
Funny that we both thought the 800 cams were for hi-rev power, but we were wrong! They - compared to 650 ones - are for more torque onto the whole of rpms.... so the fully-squeezed 650 is still away from a reasonable mild mannered 800.
Now the friend (hitten in his self-esteem) is now waiting for the valve check to replace the cams with a model S ones. Bad boy

PS - the reflashing is an HIS work-of-art (he's an expert in car tuning) and is done by BDM port, so it's necessary to open the ECU... just to complete the info

PPS - to eliminate the SAS is enough to unplug the connector.
Tried to spin the wheels (stupid rainy clouds: in-gear & on center stand) and no error message; moreover the EV is normally closed, so it's stopping the flow while de-energized.
Then, the missing of an error signal is actually saying how is this system important for the engine functionality... and - sorry Joel - the contribution to performance thru RAM effect is really negligible.

Gaspare screwed with this post 05-18-2013 at 03:07 PM Reason: PPS
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:54 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
The areas that have small amount of fuel added (single digit percent) are most likely the areas that didn't take much fuel to get to 13.5 (8% addition nominally) or 13.2 (10% nominally). Where there are very big numbers (see next comments) I suspect that the SAS is adding air.
I follow you, and agree.


Therefore a reasonable next step is to disable SAS by unplugging the connector or plugging up the hose itself and then riding for a few tanks of fuel.
Sorry, but will have to roll this into Sunday.....as Mu home country of Denmark, just won the Eurovision Melody GrandPrix.... Celebrating right now....



At 14.7:1 there is almost no O2 in the exhaust . At 13.2 to 13.8 there is even less than that. Therefore small amount of added air will lead to a large increase in the AFR the PCV sees. (Remember those 18% numbers we talked about a few pages back?) I strongly suspect that any number more than 10-12% in the Trim table is incorrect (other than the "hop" numbers).

Here would be my plan of attack.

1. Save your current tables.
I will print screen it.

2. Set the 2, 5;1250, 1500 AFR targets to zero so that it doesn't adjust.
I will agree to the 5% to Zero, but if I take the 2% to zero as well, I am afraid I will be back to the off idle hopping again. As I am gettin in tune more with the bike, I think tat I will lower the 2% column from 1250 ( roughly idle) to 3500 to 5, as I can see a very slight hint of the hopping at intermediate rpm's going from closed to open throttle. But I think 5% will do the job.

3. Set the Trims for those values to zero also.
4. Disable SAS
I am simply going to unplug it, as have a few rides.

5. Take any Trim cell that is great than 10 and revert it to 10.
I cannot change, or input the trim table......only AT can publish that.

6. Ride for a while and see what happens. You can always to back having saved the tables.

EDIT: Also, I would reduce the maximum trim to 15% so that you don't get one cell going out of bounds. Even with your exhaust mods, I doubt any cell will need more than a 15% trim to get to 13.2-5. Your tuner stopped at 10% for the WOT cells.
I will do this also, if it is in fact at 25%.

I think this is a good plan of action for tomorrow.....
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Old 05-18-2013, 08:35 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
I think this is a good plan of action for tomorrow.....
On the idle-hop ... I would leave four 20s in the base map, set the AFR targets to zero. And then try to put zeros there on the Trim map.

Are you sure you can't manually change the trim map? Didn't the tuner get those 10s in the Trim table?
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Old 05-18-2013, 08:41 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
On the idle-hop ... I would leave four 20s in the base map, set the AFR targets to zero. And then try to put zeros there on the Trim map.

Are you sure you can't manually change the trim map? Didn't the tuner get those 10s in the Trim table?
I was under the impression he did, but when I looked, I saw no way how to change the trim table. They appear, after you lick " get map" ie, loads from the pc-5. I will have a look in the morning....well....noonish.
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Old 05-19-2013, 01:13 AM   #276
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Good morning, mates! Sunshine today: afternoon ride & late report scheduled.

Two points left from yesterday night:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek
As the 8GS does not have a knock sensor, and the 650 does
well, both of them are not equipped with knock sensor.
Then - back to previous misunderstanding, as jscottyk asked, the firmware (configuration) is the same because the management of the motors is the same - despite to the presence of SAS onto the 650.
Settings are [OEM] different.
That's why is possible to rewrite the same maps and expect the "same" results, and the SAS is not affecting because lambda readings are from SAS-OFF areas.
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Old 05-19-2013, 05:21 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
I was under the impression he did, but when I looked, I saw no way how to change the trim table. They appear, after you lick " get map" ie, loads from the pc-5. I will have a look in the morning....well....noonish.
Hi EB, I have the PCV software installed. For sure you can program the Base, AFR, and Trim maps. Maybe Get map, then Save map. All three are saved in one file.

Here's another idea for the four hop cells. Make them 12 in the Base Map, set the target AFR to 12.9 for those 4, and start with 0 in those four trim cells.

roger 04 rt screwed with this post 05-19-2013 at 07:18 AM
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:41 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Gaspare View Post
Good morning, mates! Sunshine today: afternoon ride & late report scheduled.

Two points left from yesterday night:

well, both of them are not equipped with knock sensor.
Then - back to previous misunderstanding, as jscottyk asked, the firmware (configuration) is the same because the management of the motors is the same - despite to the presence of SAS onto the 650.
Settings are [OEM] different.
That's why is possible to rewrite the same maps and expect the "same" results, and the SAS is not affecting because lambda readings are from SAS-OFF areas.
I will admit not having any experience with the 650 twin, but thought I had read time after time, that it had a knock sensor, as that subject was debated, with regard to the low octane fore that model, and not for the higher compression 800....
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:47 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Hi EB, I have the PCV software installed. For sure you can program the Base, AFR, and Trim maps. Maybe Get map, then Save map. All three are saved in one file.

Here's another idea for the four hop cells. Make them 12 in the Base Map, set the target AFR to 12.9 for those 4, and start with 0 in those four trim cells.
I will have a look......again. I am not real keen on changing the trim tables though. In trying to stay in the realm of the PC-5 workings.... the trim table is what the AT changes, to satisfy the base map. For all practicality, I have a zero map, but the target AFR overrules the base map ,as AT is active. Sooooooo, if I have told the AT to maintain a 13.2 AFR, and AT then says....hmmmm... I need a +12% to do so, then I don't think I want to force the issue of anything other than +12%. That said, Yes, you can change the values, but as far as transfer the trim settings to the PC-5, and it accepting them, is what I am not sure about.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:37 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
I will have a look......again. I am not real keen on changing the trim tables though. In trying to stay in the realm of the PC-5 workings.... the trim table is what the AT changes, to satisfy the base map. For all practicality, I have a zero map, but the target AFR overrules the base map ,as AT is active. Sooooooo, if I have told the AT to maintain a 13.2 AFR, and AT then says....hmmmm... I need a +12% to do so, then I don't think I want to force the issue of anything other than +12%. That said, Yes, you can change the values, but as far as transfer the trim settings to the PC-5, and it accepting them, is what I am not sure about.
I understand where you're coming from. I'm trying to help you with some ideas to fix up the errors caused by the SAS errors.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:52 AM   #281
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I understand where you're coming from. I'm trying to help you with some ideas to fix up the errors caused by the SAS errors.
And for that I am very grateful. Your knowledge in the subject is superb, and a fantastic asset to the thread.....For all of us...... I think the best way for me to proceed, is first and foremost to change the operation, by eliminating the SAS, as it clearly is a dysfunction. Then as I believe in one change at a time,so you can identify any issues, weather good or bad..... I will clear the trim tables, so AT has a fresh start. I might take out the 5%, as that only partains to the off idle hop, and will only clear up early throttle fuel chasing of the PC-5....... With that, I will ride it for a while, asses the operation, and see, what....if any changed. Then we will go from there, with changing, and fine tuning the table to optimize the fueling. The important part is to eliminate the SAS ( EPA satisfactor) first.
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:22 AM   #282
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Test done!
So, accordingly with the BMW SW update available on 2011, March – and not modified during the reflashing – the SAS behaves as follow.

In neutral and first three gears: ON during all the way opening throttle and stays ON during steady states, too.
When you close the throttle it turns OFF ‘till 3000 rpm (decreasing rpm),then ON again.
Obviously, if you accelerate within 3000 rpm, the SAS keep ON during the throttle closing, too.

In 4th, 5th and 6th gear, SAS during acceleration turns OFF at a certain rpm (Trottle Opening).
During deceleration, it turns ON again at a certain rpm (Throttle Closing).
4th – TO=3000 rpm; TC=2900 rpm
5th – TO=2600 rpm; TC=2500 rpm
6th – TO=2500 rpm; TC=2400 rpm (everywhere ±50 rpm)

So, with a certain hysteresis, (4th, 5th and 6th) SAS is ON below 3000-2600-2500 and OFF over these rpms – where is possible to do whatever you want (WOT, etc.) and SAS keeps OFF.

With SAS disconnected I haven’t noticed any sensible change in performance or throttle reply; quite a windy day – so I’m not sure at 100%.
Surely, the popping tendency @ SAS back ON is almost decreased; then, when I tried richer settings, a single BIG-POP was always present at the rpm where now I do know SAS is returning ON, no matter how I was decelerating…

It does make sense the SAS OFF is equivalent at where we could expect the λ validated readings, or at least is a proper subset…
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:32 AM   #283
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And for that I am very grateful. Your knowledge in the subject is superb, and a fantastic asset to the thread.....For all of us...... I think the best way for me to proceed, is first and foremost to change the operation, by eliminating the SAS, as it clearly is a dysfunction. Then as I believe in one change at a time,so you can identify any issues, weather good or bad..... I will clear the trim tables, so AT has a fresh start. I might take out the 5%, as that only partains to the off idle hop, and will only clear up early throttle fuel chasing of the PC-5....... With that, I will ride it for a while, asses the operation, and see, what....if any changed. Then we will go from there, with changing, and fine tuning the table to optimize the fueling. The important part is to eliminate the SAS ( EPA satisfactor) first.
This sounds like a good plan.


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Test done!
So, accordingly with the BMW SW update available on 2011, March – and not modified during the reflashing – the SAS behaves as follow.

In neutral and first three gears: ON during all the way opening throttle and stays ON during steady states, too.
When you close the throttle it turns OFF ‘till 3000 rpm (decreasing rpm),then ON again.
Obviously, if you accelerate within 3000 rpm, the SAS keep ON during the throttle closing, too.

In 4th, 5th and 6th gear, SAS during acceleration turns OFF at a certain rpm (Trottle Opening).
During deceleration, it turns ON again at a certain rpm (Throttle Closing).
4th – TO=3000 rpm; TC=2900 rpm
5th – TO=2600 rpm; TC=2500 rpm
6th – TO=2500 rpm; TC=2400 rpm (everywhere ±50 rpm)

So, with a certain hysteresis, (4th, 5th and 6th) SAS is ON below 3000-2600-2500 and OFF over these rpms – where is possible to do whatever you want (WOT, etc.) and SAS keeps OFF.

With SAS disconnected I haven’t noticed any sensible change in performance or throttle reply; quite a windy day – so I’m not sure at 100%.
Surely, the popping tendency @ SAS back ON is almost decreased; then, when I tried richer settings, a single BIG-POP was always present at the rpm where now I do know SAS is returning ON, no matter how I was decelerating…

It does make sense the SAS OFF is equivalent at where we could expect the λ validated readings, or at least is a proper subset…
Great work! It seems like it is ON a lot of the time in normal driving.

Based on your description, is seems that sas may be tied to throttle angle and that is why the RPM threshold changes with gear. That could easily be checked with a GS-911?
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:58 AM   #284
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Now this is getting good....
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Old 05-19-2013, 12:03 PM   #285
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is seems that sas may be tied to throttle angle and that is why the RPM threshold changes with gear.
Be careful: during acceleration the RPM threshold is always the same, no matter if you are WOT or just moving smoothly the throttle... these RPMs are very ripetitive... I'm sure the RPM measurements leads the control.
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