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Old 05-19-2013, 05:41 PM   #301
terryckdbf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
No, as the original tune really was a way to verify that it was working. You notice that the base map is a zero map, but that the AT table ( AFR) was derived from that tune..... And perhaps it could be tweaked, as it was done with the Dyno's sniffer...... Who knows, but the same AFR table was used in both riding tests, and the difference was astonishing, to say the least.
EB

I hope you do not mind the following.

I have no doubt you felt what you felt and the bike was as you say it was. I also have no doubt that the SAS should be plugged. Dynojet says to do so in their install procedures and they say it on both pages.



It would make pefect sense, to me, that the bike would perform well before disabling the SAS, it should, it was configured to do so. It also makes sense, again, to me, the bike would not perform well with the SAS disconnected, it has not been configured to do so.

The "off idle hop" or whatever we want to call it is solved by adding fuel, pure and simple.

I believe your bike will run just as well with the SAS disconnected if configured to do so. It takes patience and resolve but the results will be there. Since you are pleased with the bike and SAS connected you can simply stop here and enjoy. I have read forum after forum, post after post, and all are disabling the SAS, configuring the bike and getting the results.

Dynojet manufactures the device, programs bikes daily, and knows what they are doing. If they are adamant regarding the SAS, then I believe them.

I do not have an 800 and I may be one of the first to install a wideband system on a Camhead. When I first fired it up my bike was not a happy camper. I have never met Roger but I studied his work for over a year. I also researched other means to accomplish the same thing. I was able to do a few things to get my results. I could ride and log the realtime A/F R, I also have a GS-911 allowing me to log other realtime values, and I could send them to Roger to analyze. He suggested settings based on what he saw. I rode hour upon hour, many miles, I could stop along the road, save the files, input new settings and continue. By the end of the second day Roger had my bike running very well. I continued fine tuning over the next week until I am where I am, very happy.

You also have a wideband system, fully adjustable, very potent. Other than the input before or after the ECU, we accomplish the same thing. We are not here to argue the merits of one system over the other, we are here to help each other the best we can. Roger can help but be patient, make the changes, give him feedback to go on. It would not surprise me in the least if you disconnected the SAS, programmed 13.4 in all cells as the target, rode about 400 miles normally as you do letting the AT do its thing. you would start to see some good things. Maybe not, cannot hurt though.

Just my opinion.

I have really enjoyed your posts, very enlightning.

Be safe

Terry
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Old 05-19-2013, 06:27 PM   #302
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terryckdbf View Post
EB

I hope you do not mind the following.

I have no doubt you felt what you felt and the bike was as you say it was. I also have no doubt that the SAS should be plugged. Dynojet says to do so in their install procedures and they say it on both pages.



It would make pefect sense, to me, that the bike would perform well before disabling the SAS, it should, it was configured to do so. It also makes sense, again, to me, the bike would not perform well with the SAS disconnected, it has not been configured to do so.

The "off idle hop" or whatever we want to call it is solved by adding fuel, pure and simple.

I believe your bike will run just as well with the SAS disconnected if configured to do so. It takes patience and resolve but the results will be there. Since you are pleased with the bike and SAS connected you can simply stop here and enjoy. I have read forum after forum, post after post, and all are disabling the SAS, configuring the bike and getting the results.

Dynojet manufactures the device, programs bikes daily, and knows what they are doing. If they are adamant regarding the SAS, then I believe them.

I do not have an 800 and I may be one of the first to install a wideband system on a Camhead. When I first fired it up my bike was not a happy camper. I have never met Roger but I studied his work for over a year. I also researched other means to accomplish the same thing. I was able to do a few things to get my results. I could ride and log the realtime A/F R, I also have a GS-911 allowing me to log other realtime values, and I could send them to Roger to analyze. He suggested settings based on what he saw. I rode hour upon hour, many miles, I could stop along the road, save the files, input new settings and continue. By the end of the second day Roger had my bike running very well. I continued fine tuning over the next week until I am where I am, very happy.

You also have a wideband system, fully adjustable, very potent. Other than the input before or after the ECU, we accomplish the same thing. We are not here to argue the merits of one system over the other, we are here to help each other the best we can. Roger can help but be patient, make the changes, give him feedback to go on. It would not surprise me in the least if you disconnected the SAS, programmed 13.4 in all cells as the target, rode about 400 miles normally as you do letting the AT do its thing. you would start to see some good things. Maybe not, cannot hurt though.

Just my opinion.

I have really enjoyed your posts, very enlightning.

Be safe

Terry
I do not mind at all Terry. I agree that in theory the SAS should be disabled, but I don't think the results would be any different over time..... I said THINK... If the base map is a zero map, and m AFR map reads 13.2 95% of the time, with a few 13.5's, ad 13.8's..... That is best for power. I cannot see how the bike would make more power with either less or more fuel. That said, this was a trial run, and if I find reason to believe that it can be improved, then I am game as long as it is not a crap shoot. Here is the AT AFR map that was used with both runs.....



That is for power, with a little leaning out to 13.5-13.8 around cruising under 40% throttle. That is the map also DJ recommends for best power. I simply do not see how you can change that to get more power..... It was a big difference......not small. Again, I do not mind the discussion. This thread is worthless as a one sided vision, and only with several different inputs, can we get to the button of it.
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Old 05-19-2013, 06:29 PM   #303
ebrabaek OP
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Here are two pictures I snapped of the different trims...... with the diff. fueling highlighted.....
SAS enabled......



SAS Disabled.....
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Old 05-19-2013, 06:54 PM   #304
roger 04 rt
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EB,
Terry has written a very thoughtful essay on your current situation and I'm in agreement with him. Another way of thinking about sas or no-sas: with sas connected, the Wideband sensor at the heart of autotune is getting an exhaust signal plus an air signal. That will lead Autotune to an incorrect result.

If this were my bike I'd take the following simple approach:
1) Keep SAS disconnected because it creates an error for the Wideband sensor when it is on.
2) Use the target AFR table that you showed when I first asked you to post them. But put 0 in the 4 cells 2, 5% and 1250, 1500 RPM (part of hop fix) (later we may want to richen the AFR for 80-100% throttle, high RPMs)
3) For the Fuel Table:
a) Put the value 20 in 2%, 5% and 1250, 1500 RPM (4 cells total) (part of hop fix)
b) In every cell in the target AFR table that has 13.2, put 10 in that cell in the fuel table
c) For 13.5 in target afr use 8 in the fuel table
d) For 13.8 use 6 in the fuel table.
4) Clear the Trim table again.

This may seem simplistic but it is the best starting point. Also, don't expect the Autotune to get things dialed in quickly. I don't know how long it takes to "learn" a cell but it is not instantaneous.

RB
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:08 PM   #305
ebrabaek OP
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
EB,
Terry has written a very thoughtful essay on your current situation and I'm in agreement with him. Another way of thinking about sas or no-sas: with sas connected, the Wideband sensor at the heart of autotune is getting an exhaust signal plus an air signal. That will lead Autotune to an incorrect result.

If this were my bike I'd take the following simple approach:
1) Keep SAS disconnected because it creates an error for the Wideband sensor when it is on.
2) Use the target AFR table that you showed when I first asked you to post them. But put 0 in the 4 cells 2, 5% and 1250, 1500 RPM (part of hop fix) (later we may want to richen the AFR for 80-100% throttle, high RPMs)
3) For the Fuel Table:
a) Put the value 20 in 2%, 5% and 1250, 1500 RPM (4 cells total) (part of hop fix)
b) In every cell in the target AFR table that has 13.2, put 10 in that cell in the fuel table
c) For 13.5 in target afr use 8 in the fuel table
d) For 13.8 use 6 in the fuel table.
4) Clear the Trim table again.

This may seem simplistic but it is the best starting point. Also, don't expect the Autotune to get things dialed in quickly. I don't know how long it takes to "learn" a cell but it is not instantaneous.

RB
Well.... I am not disagreeing with either of you that the SAS should be disconnected, but then explain to me, why the bike ran like crap with the AT AFR table set for power at 13.2 most through out the table. The PC-5/AT takes very little time to adjust, and make the trim table, as we saw on the dyno. So with SAS disabled, AT said to make max power with an AFR of 13.2, which overrides the base map, so regardless of what I put in the base map.....10....8....6.... it will be void, as the AT,and the Target AFR is the denominator. Could there be more to the situation on the 8GS, with the SAS disabled, this bike specific, that none other have seen......????
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:10 PM   #306
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
EB,
Terry has written a very thoughtful essay on your current situation and I'm in agreement with him. Another way of thinking about sas or no-sas: with sas connected, the Wideband sensor at the heart of autotune is getting an exhaust signal plus an air signal. That will lead Autotune to an incorrect result.

If this were my bike I'd take the following simple approach:
1) Keep SAS disconnected because it creates an error for the Wideband sensor when it is on.
2) Use the target AFR table that you showed when I first asked you to post them. But put 0 in the 4 cells 2, 5% and 1250, 1500 RPM (part of hop fix) (later we may want to richen the AFR for 80-100% throttle, high RPMs)
3) For the Fuel Table:
a) Put the value 20 in 2%, 5% and 1250, 1500 RPM (4 cells total) (part of hop fix)
b) In every cell in the target AFR table that has 13.2, put 10 in that cell in the fuel table
c) For 13.5 in target afr use 8 in the fuel table
d) For 13.8 use 6 in the fuel table.
4) Clear the Trim table again.

This may seem simplistic but it is the best starting point. Also, don't expect the Autotune to get things dialed in quickly. I don't know how long it takes to "learn" a cell but it is not instantaneous.

RB
It is instantaneous..... I tried to experiment with this, and after zero out..... a few throttle blips, and it populated then instantly.
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:30 PM   #307
roger 04 rt
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
It is instantaneous..... I tried to experiment with this, and after zero out..... a few throttle blips, and it populated then instantly.
Okay, that's good. It may refine those firs tnumbers with more time.

Below is a very good tutorial on how to get a good Autotune map. You may have seen it. It talks about how big an adjustment should be expected but more to this discussion, the affects of air entering the system.


How to use PCV Autotune to create a good map, by Capt Zoom

Here's a quick how to for using the Autotune for your Power Commander V (PCV).

A. In this how to I'm assuming that you've installed the PCV and Autotune correctly and are using the wide band o2 sensor which is required for the autotune to work. For instructions see Power Commanders site (linked in next section)

B. Important links
a. Power Commander http://www.powercommander.com/powercomm ... fault.aspx
b. Downloads http://www.powercommander.com/powercomm ... fault.aspx
c. Power Commander raider page http://www.powercommander.com/powercomm ... 00&yr=2009

C. Important tips and notes:
a. Ride for a sufficient time to get a good map. This means changes of less than 5% in your trim table. If you have more than a couple of cells that aren't less then 5%..you have more riding to do. I think I had 5 cells total that were over 5% and 3 of those were due to air reversion. I totaled 300 miles before trimming.
b. During your initial rides before trimming try to prevent air reversion (that weird sucking and popping sound from the pipes on decel) by not using the motor/gearing for braking. Simply pull your clutch and use the brakes. This is a bit counter intuitive for riding but will result in a better first trim.
c. Make sure you don't trim your maps more than once or twice. It causes undesirable effects, particularly really rich cells where air reversion (or SAS errors) commonly occur.
d. Don't willy-nilly accept trim changes. Examine each cell to see whats occurring. Anything above 5% change is likely not complete and anything over say 12% is likely due to air reversion (or SAS). If you repeatedly accept trim changes without examining them you'll end up with very rich AFR tables...not good.
e. Manually adjust your cells if needed (explained below).
f. Air reversion refers to air coming up the exhaust pipe and screwing up the reading of the wide band o2 sensor. Air reversion can also cause popping and backfiring and occurs with greater frequency in shorter exhaust pipes.

D. Install the PCV software to your PC-based laptop using the supplied USB connector.

E. Go to Power Commanders website and download the all map packhttp://www.powercommander.com/downloads ... 13-all.exe (these are for the Raider)
a. At the same time open word or notepad and copy down the names of the maps that are available. You'll need the numbers to find your starting map.

F. Place these maps in a folder on your desktop (call is PCV so its easy to find). You might need to unzip these maps if they are in a zip file.

G. Turn the bike's key to the on position and Run the Power commander V program on your laptop while attached to the bike via USB.

H. Double check your configuration. Some riders have had dealers do the install and they never configured this properly. Make sure you autotune is enabled and configured properly. See the manual to do this.

I. Select open fuel map and select the map you want. You'll want a map that was made for pipes that are either the same or similar to the one's you have. For my LA choppers pipes with airbox mod I selected the Cobra Swepts map since it was the closest.

J. Send this map to the autotune using the send map button.

K. As a precaution I always save a copy of the map I'm using with the date installed so I named mine something like F800S9-2-09 starting map no trim changes. You'll do this with the save map file

L. Next fire the bike up and see if everything is still running well. You should be able to see your RPM and throttle position on the right of your laptop screen.

M. If everything is good close the Power Commander Software and unplug the laptop.

N. Take the bike for a ride.

O. I put 300-400 miles on the bike before messing with the trims. Dynojet assured me that this should enable a solid map to be made. While riding attempt to not engine/gear brake by pulling in the clutch and using your breaks to slow down. This reduces air reversion which the PCV will read as an overly lean condition and will thus richen the maps cells for that throttle position and rpm. Cell location can be identified using throttle position and rpm.

P. Once you've ridden enough connect your laptop again and check out your trim table. Most of your cells should say 5% or less. If you have a few (7 or so) that are more it isn't a problem since we can fix these manually.

Q. Examine your oddball cells (greater than 5%).

R. Check the trim table and write down the coordinates (rpm by throttle position) of any cell that seems out of place. I had 4 cells in a line horizontally around 1200 and then another 3 vertically From 2500 -3000 rpm. All of these except one (-11) showed up as 20's. This suggests I was getting reversion in these coordinates. After writing these coordinants down I went to the AFR table and entered zero into each of these cells. Entering zero makes the cell inactive to trim table changes...and will therefore use the original base Fuel map value. I completed this for each of the suspect cells. An alternative is to make these cells the average of the cells around them but if you accept trim changes later it will change them.

S. Then I thought about what Johnnydinla posted in his resister mod to trick the motor post about backfiring and adding the little resister. I talked this out with dynojet and we decided to add 2 or 3% into the zero throttle position from 2000RPM up to max RPM. Doing this should reduced the backfire when you completely let off the throttle quickly which was where I was getting backfiring during decel. (I went with 3%)

T. Send your new map to the bike after making the changes and save it as something like 10-2-09 Trim attempt 1

U. Test ride your new map. If you like it then keep it. If not ride another 300 trying to prevent air reversion and repeat the above process carefully scrutinizing your trim tables cells.

V. These steps were given to me during a face to face conversation with a power commander rep. We talked about it for about an hour. Following these steps resulted in a map for my raider that is near perfect with great power, reasonable mileage, and very little popping. I might get one per week or so of riding.

W. IMPORTANT NOTE: the autotune is default set up to allow trim changes of up to 20%. If you don't scrutinize your cells and willy-nilly accept trim changes what happens is it will keep adjusting your AFR by up to 20% for each accepted trim. If you accept your trim 5 times you could end up with a 120% trim change from the base map you started from. If this happens you will likely run extremely rich symptoms include killing, black smoke from exhaust like a diesel truck, and sputtering. If you get to this point get rid of your map and start over from new.

X. Last, I have not experimented with making maps for both cylenders or making maps by gear. Power Commanders reps have stated that making a map for each cylinder isn't very beneficial since the jugs are less than 5% different so one map is sufficient for both. If someone had experimented with these please make a how to.

---by Capt_Zoom
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:08 PM   #308
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Okay, that's good. It may refine those firs tnumbers with more time.

Below is a very good tutorial on how to get a good Autotune map. You may have seen it. It talks about how big an adjustment should be expected but more to this discussion, the affects of air entering the system.


How to use PCV Autotune to create a good map, by Capt Zoom
I agree with his assesment, and at this point, it really is not a matter of lag of understanding, on my behalf. I am in full understanding of the system. But you see I am here with apparently the only one that has gone this deep into the 8GS, so we have no other riders that can chime in. On the other side we have the expert like your self ( no sarcasm here), volunteering much knowledge, and valid points, but I cant help thinking that we are over complicating the system. I basically run a zero map ( for now, since no trim changes have been inputted) but that goes out the window once AT activates, as it will now maintain ( inside the 25% in my case) the target AFR of in this case should we say 13.3. Not more to that. No matter of what is in who's columns in the base map. I can put in 20% in ALL the columns in the base maps, and the AT will simply just take'em back out to maintain the target AFR. So I do not intentionally mean to come across as an stubborn fool..... but as playing devils advocate, there might be something to the story of the 8GS, that we don't know. The DJ explanation is very generic, and not specific to the 8GS. For the record, I am aware of the bad issues with the PAIR system, or SAS as BMW calls it, but at this point I simply do not see how changing the base map, will yield any changes with the SAS disabled. We can discuss it all we want, and perhaps the best thing to do, is wait for someone else to try this, with "yours, and Dynojets correct approach" but as far as I see it, I will need to visit with my tuner, and discuss this app with him. So far I have not involved him, but Something is not right here..... Confused BMS-K.....????? I have no clue, but cannot argue with success. Right now the bike simply rips...... For now it will have to stay that way. Sorry.
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:11 PM   #309
ebrabaek OP
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A few things I forgot with regard to the tuning.... My decel popping stopped dead after the PC-5/AT SAS enabled install...... Decel popping reappeared after disabling the SAS. Not a whole lot, but it did. You can really hear/feel the reeds working, if you slowly blow into the hose from the SAS solenoid to the Valve cover..... Kind of funny.
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:42 PM   #310
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Humor me/us. Go the the below link, download and install the MAP that most closely resembles your setup. Make sure the AT is enabled and see what your impressions are.

http://www.powercommander.com/powerc...W&model-n=F800 GS&year=2010&mk=2&mdl=65&yr=2010

FWIW, ya aint the first, just the only one with the balls to publish

Can I assume you saved the original MAP from the dyno session?
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:02 PM   #311
ebrabaek OP
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Originally Posted by SOP Dirt-Rider View Post
Humor me/us. Go the the below link, download and install the MAP that most closely resembles your setup. Make sure the AT is enabled and see what your impressions are.

http://www.powercommander.com/powerc...W&model-n=F800 GS&year=2010&mk=2&mdl=65&yr=2010

FWIW, ya aint the first, just the only one with the balls to publish

Can I assume you saved the original MAP from the dyno session?
Lol......im sitting and looking at -505 map at this very moment....and it appears that as I requested a zero map to have the ability to switch the system off, and retain the stock fuel economy. ........ my tuner took the -505 map....mixed it with the dyno runs......and created a target AFR.......or so it appears. Look at the first target afr chart..... a very close comparison to the -505 map. I will verify this on Tuesday, as they open back up. I thought you run the PC-5 without the AT module....in which case you will need the -505 map....... with the AT.....all that might go out the door as the AT does whatever it needs to maintain the target afr. Yes.....maps are saved...... he he....
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:44 AM   #312
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Seen.

Erling, there is clearly something wrong with the fuel maps and AT system.
First of all, You know I've headers & Akra, and running reflashed BMS-K.
To disable the SAS is enough to unplug the connector, and - after the lamp test, I've tried to ride unplugged... No apparent change in performance.

I've thought possibly this change could be slight because (if present) is operating only into the exhaust system resonance, erasing that vacuum wave that's generated during the ex valves closing... (nothing concerning with combustion but volumetric efficiency).

So, I've detached the line to reed valves and plugged the EV exit.
Riding with that hose in handy position, I've tried many several times to accelerate especially within the areas where normally the SAS is ON, opening and closing by hand the hose... nothing.

I do repeat: windy day, so was difficult to really feel slight differences - anyway the BMS-K have a deeply different reaction compared to your setup.

Just to help.
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Old 05-20-2013, 05:28 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Gaspare View Post
Seen.

Erling, there is clearly something wrong with the fuel maps and AT system.
First of all, You know I've headers & Akra, and running reflashed BMS-K.
To disable the SAS is enough to unplug the connector, and - after the lamp test, I've tried to ride unplugged... No apparent change in performance.

I've thought possibly this change could be slight because (if present) is operating only into the exhaust system resonance, erasing that vacuum wave that's generated during the ex valves closing... (nothing concerning with combustion but volumetric efficiency).

So, I've detached the line to reed valves and plugged the EV exit.
Riding with that hose in handy position, I've tried many several times to accelerate especially within the areas where normally the SAS is ON, opening and closing by hand the hose... nothing.

I do repeat: windy day, so was difficult to really feel slight differences - anyway the BMS-K have a deeply different reaction compared to your setup.

Just to help.
I think the AT system is functioning ok. But I am wondering if th reason you dont see anything, is as you have the re flashed BMS-K. As i mentioned earlier, I agree, and dont believe the SAS is good, and should be disconnected, but are not willing to re-disabling it, until I understand why this is, as the bike runs fantastic as SAS engaged. The whole thing makes little sense, as you have proven, that the SAS is not even active much above 3000-3500 rpm, and all the power pulls were in that range, but as you compare the yellow, and pink highlighted fueling map for the two rides, there are differences higher than that. I guess one thing I can try, is to load Dynojets -505 map, and zero out trims, and ride. Perhaps it will not work well with a zero map, and SAS disabled......I am not sure.
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Old 05-20-2013, 05:29 AM   #314
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Good Morning EB

While it is true the "cells" of the fuel map populate instantly, the bike still needs time to settle down. There are many other things going on, not the least of which is adaptive values. Instantly to us is not instantly to the motor. The Autotune will always lag behind the motor as the Lambda sensor needs to first read the exhaust and then the PC V provides the corrections, not in the same combustion cycle. Even Dynojet states the Autotune takes time to learn the settings and achieve its target air/fuel, adding a base map decreases this time frame. We cannot forget the BMSK is providing the base information and doing so without the O2 signal, its #1 input, and the PC V is altering that base. Basically a moving target. It is not as simple as programming 13.2, riding for 20 miles, and having a great running bike.

SOP and Roger have provided some solutions if you are inclined. Like I said before, you have a system performing the way you want with the SAS included and you are happy. I still believe it is because it was programmed to perform that way with the SAS included. Disconnect the SAS and you can throw that program out the window, it will not run right. Program with the SAS disconnected and it will run well in my opinion.

Stay at it EB.

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Old 05-20-2013, 05:33 AM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaspare View Post
Seen.

Erling, there is clearly something wrong with the fuel maps and AT system.
First of all, You know I've headers & Akra, and running reflashed BMS-K.
To disable the SAS is enough to unplug the connector, and - after the lamp test, I've tried to ride unplugged... No apparent change in performance.

I've thought possibly this change could be slight because (if present) is operating only into the exhaust system resonance, erasing that vacuum wave that's generated during the ex valves closing... (nothing concerning with combustion but volumetric efficiency).

So, I've detached the line to reed valves and plugged the EV exit.
Riding with that hose in handy position, I've tried many several times to accelerate especially within the areas where normally the SAS is ON, opening and closing by hand the hose... nothing.

I do repeat: windy day, so was difficult to really feel slight differences - anyway the BMS-K have a deeply different reaction compared to your setup.

Just to help.
Very interesting tests on the possible effects of shutting off SAS on VE. You would think that shutting off SAS might improve VE by allowing a low pressure pocket at valve closing which would increase the pressure differential between cylinder and TB at valve opening. I would expect that effect to be RPM dependent.

If you felt nothing, the effect on VE is likely minor. It only takes a little O2 to cleanup unburned hydrocarbons but even a small amount of O2 will distort Autotune.

If we take EB at face value (and why not?) it may be that he needs richer targets that 13.2.

I suspect though that if he took my earlier advice about plugging 6, 8, and 10% into the Base map and reduced the amount of Autotune correction allow (or took your advice and used the PCV tables for his config) he would quickly get some nice gains. I second Terry, stay at it.

RB
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