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Old 05-22-2013, 07:00 PM   #406
MTrider16
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Some good questions and thoughts here, relevant to what EB is trying to achieve.

Because EB has disconnected his O2 sensor from the BMSK, it will never run a Closed Loop fueling program. Therefore, there will be no fighting between BMSK and PCV over who is in control.

However, with no O2 sensor, the BMSK may output a limp home fueling pattern. The best way for me to describe it goes something like this: normally if the BMSK were trying to get the AFR to 14.7 at, say, 3500 RPM 20 degrees throttle, it would put out a steady stream of injector pulse widths that it knew got close to 14.7:1. And it would get pretty close. But not close enough to keep the catalytic converter charged with oxygen for reducing unburned hydrocarbons and oxidizing carbon monoxide.

Therefore, with no O2 sensor present [my R1150RT] sometimes sends injector pulses that produce 15.2:1 (leaner than 14.7) and at other times sends 14.2:1 (richer) and it alternates which it sends in a crude attempt to keep the catalytic converter charged with enough O2 to reduce HC (hydrocarbons) and CO.

The above is an example of a LIMP HOME MODE. I know how BMW did it on the R1150 and I've asked Terry to unplug his O2 and record the stream with his LC-1.

So No Closed Loop with O2 sensor disconnected.

The other interesting thing you mentioned are the about mixtures.

Best Emissions Mixture or as we pilots call it, Peak EGT (exhaust gas temperature): Peak exhaust gas temperature occurs at 14.7:1. This is the mixture where the exhaust gas has the least unburned HC and the least unburned O2. In theory there is no unburned fuel and no O2 but in practice there is a little of each. Add fuel or add air and you get different results but one thing that happens in either of those cases, the exhaust gas temperature goes down.

Best Power Mixture: At Peak EGT, there is still a little unburned O2. Therefore you can get more power by adding fuel. To consume all the oxygen the amount of fuel added varies from 8-15% for normally aspirated engines and 10% (13.2:1) is a good guess. You don't have to go all the way to Best Power though to get a good improvement. On the R1150 and R1200 Terry and I have found that 6-9% 13.8 to 13.35:1 gets a great improvement. One of the risks of running Best Power at lower throttle settings is that carbon can build up in the cylinders and exhaust. It is something to keep an eye on for all of us who are richening mixtures. The exhaust temperature is cooler at Best Power but the Cylinder Head temperature is higher usually.

Best Economy: At Peak EGT, as mentioned, there is some unburned fuel. Therefore, you can add air (leaning the mixture) to the point where all the fuel is burned this is often at an AFR of 16:1. My plane, an 8 cylinder 300 HP fuel injected engine, was smooth at Best Economy at 75% power. It turns out that our R1100s, R1150s, and R1200s run very rough at Best Economy. But they do run there and the gas mileage is better. I know this because I have programmed my LC-1 to lambda 1.06 and gotten close to Best Economy. It isn't very pleasant to ride and the engine is not smooth, but it gets better gas mileage. Other than to experiment I don't run at Best Economy. But for the same power, the EGT and CHT are both cooler.

So to summarize:

EB has disconnected his O2 sensor so it is always Open Loop.
EB is adding fuel to move his bike towards Best Power

In order for Autotune to work correctly EB is planning to disable SAS.
Actually in the industrial engine world that is a little different. Best emissions is the point that is needed to fire the catalyst. Best fuel economy at all fuel and O2 consumed, perhaps a touch leaner. Best power is a little rich.

All three settings will require some timing adjustment to maximize the resulting peak firing pressure (PFP) so the created energy doesn't go out the exhaust.

David
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MTrider16 screwed with this post 05-22-2013 at 07:16 PM
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:15 PM   #407
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So, the O2 sensor is disconnected from the ECU, and the DJ5\AT read it?

I would think the lack of the AT to go richer than 25% at idle would be the cause of the idle stumble. The SAS would draw a fair amount of air at idle, which should allow the ECU to go fairly rich.

Did I understand correctly that you cannot go as rich with the AT?

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Old 05-22-2013, 07:31 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
So, the O2 sensor is disconnected from the ECU, and the DJ5\AT read it?
When you install the AT, you remove the stock O2 sensor, but install a DJ O2 sensor, that pluggs to the AT module. The Stock plug is left hanging. When the AT is active ( 2%, and above throttle) the mixture ( AFR) is held at all throttle setting. Only open loop, if you wish, is idle to, but not including the 2% throttle.

I would think the lack of the AT to go richer than 25% at idle would be the cause of the idle stumble. The SAS would draw a fair amount of air at idle, which should allow the ECU to go fairly rich.

Did I understand correctly that you cannot go as rich with the AT?
You can really go as rich as you want. But in the set up, I have limited the AT to a max. correction of 25%, so when you start to see values close to that you might be bouncing on the upper limit, but then you move the AT trim values into your base map, as described earlier today.

David
Only thing I can see is the just under 14 idle AFR prior to SAS off...... now at 15.6 idle AFR.... I would think that is too lean. It is a matter of just moving the 0 value at idle up a % or perhaps 5% at each try, and look at the live AFR.... Perhaps reaching 13-14 idle AFR, it will smooth out.
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:56 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
So I would like first to provide a thesis. I believe the reason the PC-5/AT ran like crap with the SAS disabled, and a zero map, is/was because of the motor running too lean. I know I have Rogers attention right this moment....., and are sure he will either bless, or dunk it...... Reason I say this, is that on the second trial this morning with a now 10% base map, it did not run as bad as yesterday. It did not run as good as with the SAS ON either though, but not as bad. The tone was not as mush, as yesterday, but not quite crisp either....somewhere in the middle. So in taking this thesis a step further...... Here are the trim levels after a 45 mile ride with anything from WOT pulls from 3000 rpm, to ballanced neutral torque.....ie. varied riding......Mind you these values are in addition to the 10% base map..... Lots of fuel going in there, just as Gaspare noticed as well.


Then I simply accepted all trims, and very importantly pushed the " send table" and the new base map was created, and stored in the PC-5.......



Some of those numbers are big, but to assist in my thesis, well outside of the plus minus 25% the AT is set at. Here is why I think it was ok with the SAS ON. The AT sees more air present at the O2 sensor, and schedules more fuel, running richer....erroneously, but never the less richer, this being ok. Is this by chance.... Perhaps, but I think it is plausible. So I went for a ride with the now new base map, and it became evident to me, that I now was very close to where I was with the SAS on. The tone had even shifted, to the point that it is now crisp, and snappy.....ahhhhhh... the sweet sound of a proper tuned bike..... The bike is still not behaving as well from about 7000-redline...... But I assume that is because I don't spend much time there, and it is hard to get good pulls on the freeway..... even we have a 75 mhp..... It is full of idiots in the fast lane....going....ehhhhh slow...... Here is the trim values with the new base map, and about 10 miles riding..... A much more doccile job, and seems like the AT is not goine full screw. On thing though.... I now have a rough idle, that is unacceptable..... It is hopping, and dancing, and you can really hear the cam chain slip slapping due to the roughness. Idle AFR is now 15.6, whereas before it was 13.9-14-2.... Perhaps that is the reason for the rough idle. The rough idle does not begin until at idle for about 5-10 seconds....... New trim map ( was NOT accepted to the PC-5).....



What say you gentlemen......:fre aky
EB,
Nice job on the procedure and documentation. Based on the second Trim map it seems like you have stable results. I have some thoughts about what you're seeing.

Could you describe your exhaust system again or correct me where I'm wrong? What I understand you to have is Arrow headers (are these larger diameter?), and the a collector pipe, no cat, to an open muffler. Is the O2 sensor in the same location as the stock system? Lastly, are all the joints sealed, without any leaks?

Comments
1. Idle. There is no closed loop feedback for the BMSK with the O2 sensor disconnected, so in order to get the bike to idle well you'll need to adjust air and/or fuel manually. I would try adding/removing some fuel into the idle cells. How do you adjust idle air on the F800? Currently what is your idle RPM?

I think I agree with you that the idle is lean. When was the last time your BMSK was reset by dealer, GS-911 or by disconnecting the battery? I'm wondering if there are some old adaptation values lurking.

2. The biggest adjustments seem to be in narrow bands. For example, the 14% column starting at 3250 RPM and moving up in RPM goes 14, 23, 14, 4, -3, -5. So at 3500 RPM the AT is saying that 35% more fuel than stock is needed to hit 13.2 AFR but at 4500 RPM it only needs 4% more more fuel than stock to hit 13.8 AFR. I'm having a hard time coming up with an explanation for how your add-on exhaust could have created so much additional cylinder filing at 3500 RPM and relatively so little additional at 4500. It makes me wonder if there is an exhaust leak or fresh air reversion bringing O2 to the Wideband sensor.

3. You can see other cases of the above behavior at different throttle angles.

This test has been good in that after accepting the trims, the next ride didn't have contradictory adjustments but is leaving open a question in my mind about why some cells need so much more fuel than nearly adjacent one.

I have some beta units for lambda richening. I'm thinking of setting it up for the F800GS and letting someone with a stock bike install it and see what results they report, just to get a different comparison.

I will think about your installation some more in the morning. Good job today.

RB
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:17 PM   #410
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
EB,
Nice job on the procedure and documentation. Based on the second Trim map it seems like you have stable results. I have some thoughts about what you're seeing.

Could you describe your exhaust system again or correct me where I'm wrong? What I understand you to have is Arrow headers (are these larger diameter?),
If I recall correct you gain 2mm diamter over stock headers.

and the a collector pipe, no cat, to an open muffler.
Correct.
Is the O2 sensor in the same location as the stock system? Lastly, are all the joints sealed, without any leaks?
Yes ,same location. Yes good seal.


Comments
1. Idle. There is no closed loop feedback for the BMSK with the O2 sensor disconnected, so in order to get the bike to idle well you'll need to adjust air and/or fuel manually. I would try adding/removing some fuel into the idle cells. How do you adjust idle air on the F800?
you cannot adjust the idle air. But I cann actually just fill the 1250 (idle rpm) box with whatever idle AFR I want, and AT will maintain just that. Works like a charm. I am thinking 14..as it was before the SAS disengage..... Whadayathink....????

Currently what is your idle RPM?
1250-1350

I think I agree with you that the idle is lean. When was the last time your BMSK was reset by dealer, GS-911 or by disconnecting the battery? I'm wondering if there are some old adaptation values lurking.
Has not been reset. It was silky smooth before SAS off, It is a 30 second job to either manually add a trim, or easier to just put an AFR in the idle 1250-1500 range, and AT will maintain that.

2. The biggest adjustments seem to be in narrow bands. For example, the 14% column starting at 3250 RPM and moving up in RPM goes 14, 23, 14, 4, -3, -5. So at 3500 RPM the AT is saying that 35% more fuel than stock is needed to hit 13.2 AFR but at 4500 RPM it only needs 4% more more fuel than stock to hit 13.8 AFR. I'm having a hard time coming up with an explanation for how your add-on exhaust could have created so much additional cylinder filing at 3500 RPM and relatively so little additional at 4500. It makes me wonder if there is an exhaust leak or fresh air reversion bringing O2 to the Wideband sensor.

3. You can see other cases of the above behavior at different throttle angles.

This test has been good in that after accepting the trims, the next ride didn't have contradictory adjustments but is leaving open a question in my mind about why some cells need so much more fuel than nearly adjacent one.

I have some beta units for lambda richening. I'm thinking of setting it up for the F800GS and letting someone with a stock bike install it and see what results they report, just to get a different comparison.

I will think about your installation some more in the morning. Good job today.

RB
Thanks Roger. Perhaps as I was yanking pretty good on the throttle for the test ride.... Idonno... But I will play with the idle AFR, and try 14, and see if it smooths out.
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Old 05-23-2013, 12:05 AM   #411
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Good morning to everybody here!

Well: quick contact with the friend-BMSK-scribe...
He's now out of his site for business for a while; he remembers the surprise about big fuel numbers, but he's not able to say sharply how much and can't verify by now.
So, pls, take this info as it is.

He said anyway the richer of the F800 series is the R (that have the same camshaft of S & ST - FYI).
That's enough to produce a completely different bike.
The best OEM tuned for low-end is the 650, that's why is so rideable.

Then: yes.
We modified the timing, too, and other "details" as throttle curve (is much more reactive to gas opening) and a function similar to an acceleration pump.
The ignition advance is set to prevent pinging with our common fuel (RON 95 - but tests from BMW are saying true 92) at even the most severe test ,with motor in temperature, 1500 rpm, hi gear (now possible in 6th) & WOT.
Notice with this test the all-OEM set was pinging...
Actually it is a combination of advance & richness that's managing the issue.
To tell the truth, sometimes - depending by the fuel, I think - the OEM-style pinging is still there. Who cares: is an over-the-limit situation!
With RON 98 is always perfect, and Shell RON 100 (the famous "V-power") is another bike again!!
I'm surprised there's a lot of people not able to feel the difference with V-Power fuel: maybe because a not tight setting...

About the different numbers in neighboring cells: I do remember the stage while 3-D SW smoothing in progress and the correspondent dyno result was not smooth at all.
Another correction to fill the holes and further smoothing was required.
Now is an electric motor: really astonishing!
Therefore: no surprise of changing numbers in adjacent cells.
Instead, the unpleasant surprise was to clearly read into the maps the notorious holes in torque delivery.
Surely BMW had its own reason to produce a weakness in such a motor (pollution? ...not least the competition with 1200: I know with sureness they [BMW] haven't expected such a performance from Rotax baby twin) - anyway this is a fact.

That's all, at the moment.

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Old 05-23-2013, 03:50 AM   #412
roger 04 rt
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Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
Okay, I think I finally caught up with you guys. Remember my post about industrial engines and ethanol to ITSATDM? For catalyst function the exact mixture of NOx, unburned hydrocarbons or fuel (HC), CO and O2 must be maintained. Where I think you are going astray is forgetting why the SAS is on the engine to begin with. Industrial engines do not use SAS, they also do not have large changes in throttle like automotive engines. Given the points SAS appears to be active, it is points the engineers know that extra HC's will be in the exhaust, mainly through off throttle operation or higher desired torque. The SAS is an emissions control device and allows engineers to allow more HC's in the exhaust, but still keep the catalyst firing.
That's an interesting thought. They either know that there's extra HC or insufficient stored oxygen. We could use some GS-911 data to understand the CLoop area and compare that to the SAS area.

As Ebrabaek no longer has a catalyst, there is really no reason to have the SAS, except the the ECU expects it to be there. It appears that the ECU is still trying to correct the AFR even with the DJ unit in place. It is still running in closed loop mode. Why would it not? It doesn't know the catalyst is gone, it's still getting an O2 sensor signal, why would it change operation?

Without an O2 sensor connected to its 4-wire input, the BMSK can't make any AFR adjustment. It therefore runs open loop and possibly in the limp home mode where the fueling gets varies more than a desirable amount. Terry is going to examine that at some point soon by disconnecting his O2 sensor and plotting AFR with his LC-1.

I think yes. However the trick will be able to disable it and still let the ECU operate properly.

EB's Closed Loop is disabled and the initial fueling is being calculated from TPS/RPM then modified for battery voltage, air temperature, air pressure, and oil temperature (when not warmed-up). The unknown question is whether the ECU goes into a limp home pattern with O2 disconnected.

I think the ECU is still trying to maintain the engine in best emissions mode. the DJ is only able to improve the AF in a few places where the where the engine is not running in closed loop mode (ie reading the O2 sensor) because it is calling for the SAS to operate.

The only the ECU may be doing is swinging the fueling +/- a few percent around nominal. For sure the BMSK and PCV aren't fighting.

I don't think the race bikes have catalysts, thus they don't need SAS.



I would agree with these statements by Joel. However, I would disagree with any statements that say there is a benefit to SAS other than proper mixture for catalyst operation or better emissions.

Guys just to be clear, I'm stating things pretty bluntly. The reality is, I understand control systems fairly well for industrial engines and am applying my knowledge to this automotive world. I think I understand it correctly, but could be wrong. Ask questions I may be wrong.

David[/QUOTE]
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Old 05-23-2013, 05:51 AM   #413
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I've highlighted some notes from this good advice from Capt Zoom (?).

EB, after thinking long and hard about this and considering the issue of air reversion and the comments below. I think we should consider a few things.

First we should think about the current state of adaptation values in your BMSK. When you were riding your bike with the stock O2 sensor, the BMSK built an extensive table of Adaptation Values. These are multiplicative (e.g. add 5%) and additive (e.g. Add 75 microseconds) factors which the BMSK learns during operation in Closed Loop with the Narrowband O2 sensor but then these factors are applied to OPEN LOOP fueling, and I'll repeat, ALL Open Loop fueling. These factors remain until you reset the BMSK. Ideally we would have started this process with these factors reset to 0% and 0 microseconds. I don't know how many factors there are and BMW doesn't say. It may be a 16 x 16 table that gets reduced to a handful of area factors but I haven't yet learned the exact algorithm.

Comments
1.) bigger headers, no cat and open exhaust are strong candidates for air reversion. What is the running distance from your O2 sensor to exhaust outlet and to the exhaust valves?
2.) you may want to have a defined riding protocol taking into account the notes below.
3.) you will have to hand tune idle for best idle, and you should plan to hand tune the full table so that there are not large row or column or adjacent cell variations.
4.) eventually for WOT tuning you may want o go back on the dyno, and you may want to set targets in the 12.5-12.8 range which is a little richer than best power mixture. At those exhaust volumes and velocities I would be surprised if there was any air reversion.

A final thought, since your bike was running very satisfactorily, you may just want to go back to where you were. In the meantime, I'm going to take your pre-acceptance trim values and suggest another base map.

RB


Quote:
How to use PCV Autotune to create a good map, by Capt Zoom

Here's a quick how to for using the Autotune for your Power Commander V (PCV).

Important tips and notes:
a. Ride for a sufficient time to get a good map. This means changes of less than 5% in your trim table. If you have more than a couple of cells that aren't less then 5%..you have more riding to do. I think I had 5 cells total that were over 5% and 3 of those were due to air reversion. I totaled 300 miles before trimming.
b. During your initial rides before trimming try to prevent air reversion (that weird sucking and popping sound from the pipes on decel) by not using the motor/gearing for braking. Simply pull your clutch and use the brakes. This is a bit counter intuitive for riding but will result in a better first trim.
c. Make sure you don't trim your maps more than once or twice. It causes undesirable effects, particularly really rich cells where air reversion (or SAS errors) commonly occur.
d. Don't willy-nilly accept trim changes. Examine each cell to see whats occurring. Anything above 5% change is likely not complete and anything over say 12% is likely due to air reversion (or SAS). If you repeatedly accept trim changes without examining them you'll end up with very rich AFR tables...not good.
e. Manually adjust your cells if needed (explained below).
f. Air reversion refers to air coming up the exhaust pipe and screwing up the reading of the wide band o2 sensor. Air reversion can also cause popping and backfiring and occurs with greater frequency in shorter exhaust pipes.

D. Install the PCV software to your PC-based laptop using the supplied USB connector.

E. Go to Power Commanders website and download the all map packhttp://www.powercommander.com/downloads ... 13-all.exe (these are for the Raider)
a. At the same time open word or notepad and copy down the names of the maps that are available. You'll need the numbers to find your starting map.

F. Place these maps in a folder on your desktop (call is PCV so its easy to find). You might need to unzip these maps if they are in a zip file.

G. Turn the bike's key to the on position and Run the Power commander V program on your laptop while attached to the bike via USB.

H. Double check your configuration. Some riders have had dealers do the install and they never configured this properly. Make sure you autotune is enabled and configured properly. See the manual to do this.

I. Select open fuel map and select the map you want. You'll want a map that was made for pipes that are either the same or similar to the one's you have. For my LA choppers pipes with airbox mod I selected the Cobra Swepts map since it was the closest.

J. Send this map to the autotune using the send map button.

K. As a precaution I always save a copy of the map I'm using with the date installed so I named mine something like F800S9-2-09 starting map no trim changes. You'll do this with the save map file

L. Next fire the bike up and see if everything is still running well. You should be able to see your RPM and throttle position on the right of your laptop screen.

M. If everything is good close the Power Commander Software and unplug the laptop.

N. Take the bike for a ride.

O. I put 300-400 miles on the bike before messing with the trims. Dynojet assured me that this should enable a solid map to be made. While riding attempt to not engine/gear brake by pulling in the clutch and using your breaks to slow down. This reduces air reversion which the PCV will read as an overly lean condition and will thus richen the maps cells for that throttle position and rpm. Cell location can be identified using throttle position and rpm.

P. Once you've ridden enough connect your laptop again and check out your trim table. Most of your cells should say 5% or less. If you have a few (7 or so) that are more it isn't a problem since we can fix these manually.

Q. Examine your oddball cells (greater than 5%).

R. Check the trim table and write down the coordinates (rpm by throttle position) of any cell that seems out of place. I had 4 cells in a line horizontally around 1200 and then another 3 vertically From 2500 -3000 rpm. All of these except one (-11) showed up as 20's. This suggests I was getting reversion in these coordinates. After writing these coordinants down I went to the AFR table and entered zero into each of these cells. Entering zero makes the cell inactive to trim table changes...and will therefore use the original base Fuel map value. I completed this for each of the suspect cells. An alternative is to make these cells the average of the cells around them but if you accept trim changes later it will change them.

S. Then I thought about what Johnnydinla posted in his resister mod to trick the motor post about backfiring and adding the little resister. I talked this out with dynojet and we decided to add 2 or 3% into the zero throttle position from 2000RPM up to max RPM. Doing this should reduced the backfire when you completely let off the throttle quickly which was where I was getting backfiring during decel. (I went with 3%)

T. Send your new map to the bike after making the changes and save it as something like 10-2-09 Trim attempt 1

U. Test ride your new map. If you like it then keep it. If not ride another 300 trying to prevent air reversion and repeat the above process carefully scrutinizing your trim tables cells.

V. These steps were given to me during a face to face conversation with a power commander rep. We talked about it for about an hour. Following these steps resulted in a map for my raider that is near perfect with great power, reasonable mileage, and very little popping. I might get one per week or so of riding.

W. IMPORTANT NOTE: the autotune is default set up to allow trim changes of up to 20%. If you don't scrutinize your cells and willy-nilly accept trim changes what happens is it will keep adjusting your AFR by up to 20% for each accepted trim. If you accept your trim 5 times you could end up with a 120% trim change from the base map you started from. If this happens you will likely run extremely rich symptoms include killing, black smoke from exhaust like a diesel truck, and sputtering. If you get to this point get rid of your map and start over from new.

X. Last, I have not experimented with making maps for both cylenders or making maps by gear. Power Commanders reps have stated that making a map for each cylinder isn't very beneficial since the jugs are less than 5% different so one map is sufficient for both. If someone had experimented with these please make a how to.

---by Capt_Zoom
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:46 AM   #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
I've highlighted some notes from this good advice from Capt Zoom (?).

EB, after thinking long and hard about this and considering the issue of air reversion and the comments below. I think we should consider a few things.

First we should think about the current state of adaptation values in your BMSK. When you were riding your bike with the stock O2 sensor, the BMSK built an extensive table of Adaptation Values. These are multiplicative (e.g. add 5%) and additive (e.g. Add 75 microseconds) factors which the BMSK learns during operation in Closed Loop with the Narrowband O2 sensor but then these factors are applied to OPEN LOOP fueling, and I'll repeat, ALL Open Loop fueling. These factors remain until you reset the BMSK. Ideally we would have started this process with these factors reset to 0% and 0 microseconds. I don't know how many factors there are and BMW doesn't say. It may be a 16 x 16 table that gets reduced to a handful of area factors but I haven't yet learned the exact algorithm.

Comments
1.) bigger headers, no cat and open exhaust are strong candidates for air reversion. What is the running distance from your O2 sensor to exhaust outlet and to the exhaust valves?
The O2 sensor sits about 48 inches from the exhaust valves, and about 48 inches from the end of the exhaust.

2.) you may want to have a defined riding protocol taking into account the notes below.
3.) you will have to hand tune idle for best idle, and you should plan to hand tune the full table so that there are not large row or column or adjacent cell variations.
Video uploading to you tube. I re-balanced the idle AFR to 13.8 with AT, and idle is again silky smooth..... Yay.

4.) eventually for WOT tuning you may want o go back on the dyno, and you may want to set targets in the 12.5-12.8 range which is a little richer than best power mixture. At those exhaust volumes and velocities I would be surprised if there was any air reversion.
I cannot go back, as my dyno place is 600 miles noth, and I only have eggheads down here on the border. I have zero popping. I know that is not a 100% indicator of reverse flow, but that's all I got at the moment.

A final thought, since your bike was running very satisfactorily, you may just want to go back to where you were. In the meantime, I'm going to take your pre-acceptance trim values and suggest another base map.
I am going to experiment a bit further, knowing that I can always go back with the SAS ON. I fully understand that is the "bad way" to run it, but if the "good Way" is not better than the "bad way" then I'l take the "bad way"

RB
I am in it for curiosity. As mentioned earlier, it is hard to stop here, when it has not been fully explored. One of two thing will happen. Either A..... it will eventually run better with the SAS off......a dn I will leave it at such.... Or B... it will never match it with SAS off.... and I will just revert back, and run it with SAS on..... No big deal for me. In the meantime.... I am here to explore.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:14 AM   #415
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Just to illustrate how easy it is to use your PC-5/AT combo unit...... How to tune your idle AFR.....
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:09 AM   #416
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Very good video EB, well done. 13.8 is about 0.94 Lambda or about 6% fuel add. The bike seems to like that.

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Old 05-23-2013, 12:09 PM   #417
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Very good video EB, well done. 13.8 is about 0.94 Lambda or about 6% fuel add. The bike seems to like that.

Terry
Thanks Terry. Yeppers, it seems to like that. As to not to mess too much with the BMS-K idle mixture, richer, when cold start....etc..... I just accepted the trims into the base map, to see how it behaves, and then switched AT off at idle. That way, the idle mixture should just float with the BMS-K ops schedule. Bike likes it either way. I can always switch the AT back on if it floats too much.....
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:07 PM   #418
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EB, Well done, that should hold fine with temp and pressure/altitude. Now I suggest that you find out the max RPM that you get at 3% throttle, and in the 0% column, enter the number 6/7% that you just learned to that RPM. So if 3% throttle is 3500 rpm in neutral, add the 6/7% number in the 0% column from 1000 rpm down to 3500 rpm. I think that will take care of the small throttle openings and 1st gear acceleration smoothly.
RB

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Old 05-23-2013, 01:12 PM   #419
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The fact that you needed more fuel to get the same good idle says that you're getting more air in the cylinder at idle with SAS off!
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:58 PM   #420
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EB, Well done, that should hold fine with temp and pressure/altitude. Now I suggest that you find out the max RPM that you get at 3% throttle, and in the 0% column, enter the number 6/7% that you just learned to that RPM. So if 3% throttle is 3500 rpm in neutral, add the 6/7% number in the 0% column from 1000 rpm down to 3500 rpm. I think that will take care of the small throttle openings and 1st gear acceleration smoothly.
RB

RB
I have not ridden it after the idle remap....as it is now 97 deg, in the desert southwest...... I will let you know how it transitions.
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