Moto down in Guatemala - Need Advise (1100GS)

[dwj - Donnie]

Originally Posted by MsLizVt

PS: Did you keep the old HES?

There was some issues with the cup, but they finally got it right. No, I don't have the old unit. Keep in mind that the new problem has different symptoms from the problem prior to the Hall Sensor being changed, plus there was 10 days or so and close to 1,000 miles before I started having problems again. I definitely think that it has something to to with the engine warming up. I think the tach falling to 0 today with the engine turning means something or might at least narrow down the potential problem.

The throttle bodies were adjusted out of balance by the first guys that worked on the moto. That is one good thing the Guatemala BMW shop did, they got those balances and I think what ever the problem is, is less of a problem due to them being properly balanced.

One of the big questions is, what will cause your tach to drow to 0, even though the engine is turning? As for now, I am cautiously heading south, hoping some ADV help, gets my moto corrcted or at least gives me peace of mind that I can make it to Panama and back to MS.

[MsLizVt]

Originally Posted by dwj - Donnie

One of the big questions is, what will cause your tach to drow to 0, even though the engine is turning? As for now, I am cautiously heading south, hoping some ADV help, gets my moto corrcted or at least gives me peace of mind that I can make it to Panama and back to MS.

Donnie, hi!

Among other things, like shorts, one thing that will make the tach go to zero is loss of power, or loss of ground. After spending a few months trying to track down issues with my bike, it turned out that the ground from the battery to the engine/transmission, which was under the battery/ABS holder, was corroded to the point that the wire was barely attached anymore.

After cleaning it up, putting another end on it, and bolting it back on, everything was fine. But the issues were everything from bad starting to running bad, to questioning whether the fuel pump was working, to lights going out, and on and on.

Do you remember if the lights went off when the tach went to zero?

It's just a thought. Good luck with making it the rest of the way.


Liz

[dwj - Donnie]

Originally Posted by MsLizVt

Donnie, hi!

Among other things, like shorts, one thing that will make the tach go to zero is loss of power, or loss of ground. After spending a few months trying to track down issues with my bike, it turned out that the ground from the battery to the engine/transmission, which was under the battery/ABS holder, was corroded to the point that the wire was barely attached anymore.

After cleaning it up, putting another end on it, and bolting it back on, everything was fine. But the issues were everything from bad starting to running bad, to questioning whether the fuel pump was working, to lights going out, and on and on.

Do you remember if the lights went off when the tach went to zero?

It's just a thought. Good luck with making it the rest of the way.


Liz

Very interesting! It don't explain why it would only happen during the warm up, but In may run a short wire from the negative post to the frame. I don't want to pull the battery and it's holder. It did take a while to get the moto sorted after the Hall Sensor was changed. They had a lot of trouble with the connector headed to the coil. At one point they had jumpers around the connection.

[MC_Collector]

Originally Posted by dwj - Donnie

Very interesting! It don't explain why it would only happen during the warm up, but In may run a short wire from the negative post to the frame. I don't want to pull the battery and it's holder. It did take a while to get the moto sorted after the Hall Sensor was changed. They had a lot of trouble with the connector headed to the coil. At one point they had jumpers around the connection.

Donnie,

Don't know where the BMW tach signal comes from, but many come off the coil and it is guaranteed that the thing will run terrible or not at all with an intermittant coil connection. Generally there are two primary connections but one might get it's ground connection through the frame. Maybe you should take a close look at the coil connections?

Dusty

[dwj - Donnie]

The moto died yesterday and has not fired since! The mechanic looking at it thinks it is not getting sufficient signal for fuel and thinks that it is the computer. Does the Hall Sensor have any effect on the signal for the fuel injector?

[MsLizVt]

Originally Posted by dwj - Donnie

The moto died yesterday and has not fired since! The mechanic looking at it thinks it is not getting sufficient signal for fuel and that it is the computer. Does the Hall Sensor have any effect on the signal for the fuel injector?

Donnie, hi!

Sorry about the bike dying.

Yes, the HES sends a signal to the Motronic, saying where the motor is in the strokes, and the Motronic sends a signal to the fuel injectors, telling them when to spray fuel, as well as the Motronic takes that same information and tells the coils and spark plugs when to fire.

You said before:

It did take a while to get the moto sorted after the Hall Sensor was changed. They had a lot of trouble with the connector headed to the coil. At one point they had jumpers around the connection.

Can you elaborate please? What connector, the one directly from the HES, that ties into the wiring harness, and goes to the Motronic, or a connector that goes up to the coil, or the coil wires that go to the plugs? What were the symptoms that made the run jumpers around the connection?



Liz


EDIT: The way to check the fuel injectors [and others might have better ideas on this] is to pull the injector out, point it into a bucket, or jar or bottle, and turn the motor over. If it's got a good flow, you'll know it, which means it's getting a good signal. Check both sides.

PS: Please check that HES timing cup. If it was just pinched in there, it could have worked it's way loose, and be wobbling between the HES sensors. Check the actual sensors too for any damage. Remember to loosen the alternator to get the belt off, and put it back on.

It's my opinion that the actual sensors will keep on working even if they are scrapped a bit. A way to check them is to put a volt/ohm/amp meter on the two wires, for each sensor, then put a piece of metal in between the sensor.

My guess is you've already been in the Hall of Wisdom, but if not, take a look here. http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom...ll_sensors.pdf

[Vince]

It probably a good thing its completely died,Its much better than an intermittent fault.Wish you well with this.Check the coil connections.

[dwj - Donnie]

Originally Posted by MsLizVt

Donnie, hi!

Sorry about the bike dying.

Yes, the HES sends a signal to the Motronic, saying when the motor where it is in the strokes, and the Motronic sends a signal to the fuel injectors, telling them when to spray fuel, as well as the Motronic takes that same information and tells the coils and spark plugs when to fire.

You said before:




Can you elaborate please? What connector, the one directly from the HES, that ties into the wiring harness, and goes to the Motronic, or a connector that goes up to the coil, or the coil wires that go to the plugs? What were the symptoms that made the run jumpers around the connection?



Liz

Hi Liz!

The connection from the Hall Sensor to the Motronic. Earlier you had mentioned the flange on the hub at the Hall Sensor. Mine has been adjusted a couple of times. What is the proper orientation?

Donnie

[dwj - Donnie]

The moto kept having problems after the Hall Sensor was replaced. They thought it was the connector and put jumpers around it. They eventually eliminated the jumpers.

BTW, two loaded KLRs passed me while I was broken down yesterday and didn't even slow down!

[dwj - Donnie]

Originally Posted by Vince

It probably a good thing its completely died,Its much better than an intermittent fault.Wish you well with this.Check the coil connections.

Yes, I just wished it would have done it while it was in the BMW shop for nine days!

[MsLizVt]

Originally Posted by dwj - Donnie

Hi Liz!

The connection from the Hall Sensor to the Motronic. Earlier you had mentioned the flange on the hub at the Hall Sensor. Mine has been adjusted a couple of times. What is the proper orientation?

Donnie

Donnie, Hi!

In the center of the cup, there is a hole, there is a tab that should be sticking out of that. That little tab will fit into a little keyway. Here's a photo of the keyway. The tab has to fit in there. If there is no tab, than the cup is bad. Without a tab, the cup will spin.

Sorry for the size of the photos.

Am I making sense?



Liz

[MsLizVt]

The cup goes onto the crankshaft with the tab fitting into that keyway. The center of the cup will fit around the little raised lip in the center of the crankshaft. Then the belt pulley will fit over the cup, and the bolt goes through the pulley into the crankshaft.

It's very easy to have that pulley be loose in the tightening of the bolt process, and the cup to slip out of place. It's hard to notice it, and what happens is the pulley presses the cup against the crankshaft, and if the cup is out of place a little, it'll either wobble through the hall effect sensors, or the tab can be flattened out against the crankshaft end, if the tab isn't in the keyway. If the tab is flattened out, the cup can spin, which would make it out of sync with the HES. And trust me on this, it doesn't have to be out of place by much to change the timing and duration that the opening in the cup should be passing through the Hall Effect Sensors. And that will totally make the bike run crazy.

The difference between this and a bad HES is the wires in the HES lose all their insulation, and short out. When it's shorting out, it's an all off sort of thing. With the cup that's out of true, the HES is still wanting to work, and still sending a signal, it's just when the signal is being sent, and how much signal is being sent, that's wrong.

[MsLizVt]

Originally Posted by dwj - Donnie

The moto kept having problems after the Hall Sensor was replaced. They thought it was the connector and put jumpers around it. They eventually eliminated the jumpers.

BTW, two loaded KLRs passed me while I was broken down yesterday and didn't even slow down!

Yikes! What's the story with that! Don't they know your real bike is your KLR?

[dwj - Donnie]

Originally Posted by MsLizVt

Donnie, Hi!

In the center of the cup, there is a hole, there is a tab that should be sticking out of that. That little tab will fit into a little keyway. Here's a photo of the keyway. The tab has to fit in there. If there is no tab, than the cup is bad. Without a tab, the cup will spin.

Sorry for the size of the photos.

Am I making sense?



Liz

Thanks Liz! Donnie

[MsLizVt]

By the way, if you're getting tired of fishing the Alternator Belt Cover - the black cover on the front of the motor - out between the exhaust, cut it in half horizontally.

Use a hacksaw or wood saw or ban saw or whatever, to cut the black plastic in half so you have a top piece and you have a bottom piece. Roughly half way works, but make sure you have the two upper bolts in the upper piece, and two lower bolts in the lower piece.

There's no issue about water or dust getting in to the belt, because the cover is already vented.

It's just a lot easier to take the cover off in two pieces than it is when it's one piece.

This trick is compliments of an ADV Inmate, whom I can't remember.


PS: the reason they were having trouble with the connector and had to jump it, is most likely not an issue with the connector, it was probably that the cup was not on the shaft correctly. Remember that it looks very easy to not loosen the alternator and put the belt on, but it's doom to the cup. Chances of the cup staying where it's supposed while the lower pulley is being put on under tension - with the belt on - is slim.