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Old 02-14-2013, 09:45 PM   #46
corndog67
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And this one, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-DuzXcQ4qM
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:17 AM   #47
Ceri JC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaftEd View Post
You know, not only the bikes, but also the loading down of the monsters. Seems we modern adv types can't go anywhere without bringing everything including the kitchen sink. One main thing I've learned in my Baja trips? Pack light! These triple aluminum bag setups, fully loaded plus panniers hanging off the tank, crash bars everywhere( a self fulfilling prophecy?), huge windscreens. I mean it's Baja, how much gear do you need when off the bike. Maybe a pair of swim trunks and flip flops. Keep it light while off road unless you're going to Tierra Del Fuego or some other mega trip.
Yes, an already heavy bike can become impossible to pick up due to the weight of luggage. I can think of two instances where I had to remove luggage whilst a bike was on its side, to make the bike light enough to pick up. Most notably, trail riding in the snow last weekend, I removed a bag that I know weighed only 4KG and that was enough to change from 'can't pick it up' to managing to lift it up, when I was on my own. 4KG is nothing as a proportion of 210KG, but when you're at the limit of what you can lift, it might as well be 400KG. The thing is, the bigger the bike, the less you notice the weight/effect of the luggage, until it's lying on its side. As a result, most people overladen the things spectacularly.

I was camping out at below freezing temperatures off the bike at a Rally recently. Me and my riding buddy couldn't work out how/why people had quite so much stuff on their bikes. I just had a US-30 on the rear rack and a 35 litre Ortlieb on the pillion seat. We weren't roughing it, nor were we cold. 65L gave me enough space to take a chair, full cookset, shovel, 6 man tent, stove and a -30F sleeping bag. What on earth are people taking that warrants the 100-130L of luggage capacity the overwhelming majority of bikes there had?!
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Ceri JC screwed with this post 02-15-2013 at 05:58 AM
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:22 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Falconx84 View Post
link to thread... off to read it now
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23414
Too bad all the pix are deleted...
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:27 AM   #49
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Some people carry extra fuel, tools, spare parts, dress clothes, electronics, lots of food and water, etc.
I just used to carry a bag o tools, a small tent, small sleeping bag, and one change of clothes, no food, no cooking equipment, no fuel, water only when needed.

For off road, the list goes up, lots of water, spare tubes, tools to replace it, pumps, patches, chain lube, oil, etc...

You can overload a heavy bike with hard cases and dirt ride it, but I think most underestimate the risk of broken bones doing it.

I hate heavy bikes because I ride solo, and get a heavy bike stuck in a mud hole with the rear wheel stuck on a root and you might never get the bike out.
When young and in very good shape, I once rode into a mud pit that looked like firm ground but was river dredge mud under the covering of normal looking stuff.
Me and a friend tried to get the bike out for an hour and could not do it, we had to get a friend to pull it out with a truck.
The bike was a 350, and it being a 1200 with another 200 pounds we might never have got it out even with the truck...





Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceri JC View Post
Yes, an already heavy bike can become impossible to pick up due to the weight of luggage. I can think of two instances where I had to remove luggage whilst a bike was on its side, to make the bike light enough to pick up. Most notably, trail riding in the snow last weekend, I removed a bag that I know weighed only 4KG and that was enough to change from 'can't pick it up' to managing to lift it up, when I was on my own. 4KG is nothing as a proportion of 210KG, but when you're at the limit of what you can lift, it might as well be 400KG. The thing is, the bigger the bike, the less you notice the weight/effect of the luggage, until it's lying on its side. As a result, most people overladen the things spectacularly.

I was camping out at below freezing temperatures off the bike at a Rally recently. Me and my riding buddy couldn't work out how/why people had quite so much stuff on their bikes. I just had a US-30 on the rear rack and a 35 litre Ortlieb on the pillion seat. We we're roughing it, nor were we cold. 65L gave me enough space to take a chair, full cookset, shovel, 6 man tent, stove and a -30F sleeping bag. What on earth are people taking that warrants the 100-130L of luggage capacity the overwhelming majority of bikes there had?!
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:54 AM   #50
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:42 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
There is still some difference, about 30 pounds, but the GS Adv is still wider and bulkier! None the less, it still comes down to the rider no matter what bike you ride!

Jim
The bikes are the same under the big tank, taller suspension, and crash bars. The only real difference can be wheels. Cast vs spokes. IDK what each weighs.

IOW all the stuff 'regular' GS riders hang off their bikes to make it an 'Adv-Lite' have to bring the weights lots closer than 30# that keeps getting tossed around. ...and I still had more range, more suspension travel, and better bags!

Nicest thing about the big tank? You don't HAVE to fill it all the way up to get the same range as the 'regular' GS. In fact, unless I was riding a fair ways solo, I'd only fill up halfway 'cause I'm going to have to stop at the range of the smallest tank anyway.

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Old 02-15-2013, 07:00 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Mr_Snips View Post
...... You can climb hills like a dirtbike but not as quickly and you will need to be a little more prudent with line choice. But to say a zx10 is just as capable as a GSA is naive
I have not found that to be true. About ten years ago was the first time I ever saw a big GS really pushed hard offroad. The rider did a remarkable job. But eventually he hit a section just too steep for a big bike. The obstacle that finally stopped him was a nearly vertical section of slippery trail featuring a hefty boulder sticking out about halfway up. I will give the guy credit for being an excellent rider to even get that far and having the balls to even try it.

But there was just no way a bike that big could overcome the lack of traction to hit that rock hard enough to clear it. Even dirt bikes ridden by timid or less skilled riders were struggling with that section of trail. But while the guy was stuck blocking the trail with a half dozen people helping him try to get the bike back down dirt bikes were passing him off the trail in even less traction with an steeper rock face to hit. I was one of the ones that passed him that way.

When you are talking true offroad rather than simply off pavement there are a lot of obstacles that you will simply never overcome on a very large adventure bike. Even my 640E, which is a pretty damned good dirt bike, is too large for some enduro trails. I was on one last year with switchbacks so tight and so steep that I had to get off and drag the ass end around some of the turns while trying not to loose it over the edge into a huge dropoff. But dirt bikes scooted right through there.

For me it was a two person job even on a bike that only weighs 300 pounds and is made for pretty serious offroad work. Granted that isn't the kind of stuff adventure bikes are made for. But when you say they will climb like dirt bikes you have to remember that dirt bikes will go up vertical faces, rock steps and all manner of hell that a big adventure bikes are simply incapable of tackling. I have looped my 640E three times on rocky nearly vertical trails from riding it like an enduro.

The idea of looping a GS on a nearly vertical climb is the stuff mightmares are made of.
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:38 AM   #53
Ceri JC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
Nicest thing about the big tank? You don't HAVE to fill it all the way up to get the same range as the 'regular' GS. In fact, unless I was riding a fair ways solo, I'd only fill up halfway 'cause I'm going to have to stop at the range of the smallest tank anyway.
This is a really important point. I recently posted in a thread where someone wanted to lose weight from their F800GS; simply taking less fuel offroad will shave a lot of weight. On a GSA or similar 'big tanked' Adv bike, it will be even more. If you are riding with/against small bikes (which this thread seems to be focused on)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grreatdog View Post
For me it was a two person job even on a bike that only weighs 300 pounds and is made for pretty serious offroad work. Granted that isn't the kind of stuff adventure bikes are made for. But when you say they will climb like dirt bikes you have to remember that dirt bikes will go up vertical faces, rock steps and all manner of hell that a big adventure bikes are simply incapable of tackling. I have looped my 640E three times on rocky nearly vertical trails from riding it like an enduro.
I think this is fair comment. I broadly class dirt into one of three categories;
1. "Fire Roads" - Stuff a 2WD car could get down; yes, there's no tarmac, but it'd easily be passable on a street bike with road tyres.
2. "Trail Riding" - Stuff that a well ridden large Adv bike with knobblies could make it through; forest single track trails, water-logged grass covered fields/gentle hills, moderate hill climbs, steep trails made up of 12" diameter rocks.
3. "Proper Offroad" - Trials-type obstacles, large fallen trees, rock gardens, hillclimbs with any section more than a couple of feet long that are vertical/near vertical. Impassable on any bike that isn't a proper dirtbike, or Trials machine. People who claim their GSA can do these things are almost always mistaken.


The main thing I would point out is that a lot (although certainly not all) smaller capacity dirt bike riders lack the skill/willingness to negotiate stuff in '3'. I have seen lots of small dirtbikes repeatedly fail to get up this hillclimb (I'm on an F800GS in this vid) and looped a G450X there when I was less experienced and I would very much class that as '2', albeit at the 'more challenging' end of the scale.



If you're riding with people for whom the sort of thing in the video is the limit of what they'll do on a little bike, you won't have too much trouble keeping up on a big bike. If you're with a load of ex-trials champs who love to go off piste, you won't be able to.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:33 AM   #54
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Horses for courses. I've got 990 adv and while i really enjoy riding it, i also know it's limitations, for example soft sand, single track. I can hear bloke's saying, i take my Gs, super t, 990adv, Multistrada, Stelvio, etc, everywhere. Well, you can take a Goldwing thru Sahara, as a friend mine did, but is it the right tool for it? There is no single ' do absolutely everything motorcycle' made. Years ago i was watching a hill climbing competition in Oz, tricky rock strewn steep goat track, every motocross, enduro bike trying it, only few made it to the top. This bloke on a trials bike made it look like childs play. Wouldn't like to travel very far on a trials bike though!
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:42 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by ShaftEd View Post
It's not just a matter of being able to get through the off road sections, but actually having a good time while doing it. I've got both a 12GS and a Suzuki DR350. Both have been to Baja and on many of the same dirt sections. While I can "get through" many of sandy roads on the Beemer, it aint much fun. You're just surviving and hoping for the end. On the DR, I'm having a blast, enjoying the dirt. Big difference.

You know, not only the bikes, but also the loading down of the monsters. Seems we modern adv types can't go anywhere without bringing everything including the kitchen sink. One main thing I've learned in my Baja trips? Pack light! These triple aluminum bag setups, fully loaded plus panniers hanging off the tank, crash bars everywhere( a self fulfilling prophecy?), huge windscreens. I mean it's Baja, how much gear do you need when off the bike. Maybe a pair of swim trunks and flip flops. Keep it light while off road unless you're going to Tierra Del Fuego or some other mega trip.

This was my luggage for a week in Baja. Looks like packing light didn't help much here though. Shoulda had the little bike.
[IMG] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]
I should learn to head your advice:



That's at the top of an arroyo in southeast Utah. I had to take everything off the bike and lay it over to get unstuck. I was definitely wishing for a smaller bike right about then.
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:24 PM   #56
ShaftEd
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Originally Posted by Supahflid View Post
That's at the top of an arroyo in southeast Utah. I had to take everything off the bike and lay it over to get unstuck. I was definitely wishing for a smaller bike right about then.

Yep, the old "lay it over in the sand, fill up the tire hole, stand it back up" trick. Works like a charm though.
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:43 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceri JC View Post
This is a really important point. I recently posted in a thread where someone wanted to lose weight from their F800GS; simply taking less fuel offroad will shave a lot of weight. On a GSA or similar 'big tanked' Adv bike, it will be even more. If you are riding with/against small bikes (which this thread seems to be focused on)



I think this is fair comment. I broadly class dirt into one of three categories;
1. "Fire Roads" - Stuff a 2WD car could get down; yes, there's no tarmac, but it'd easily be passable on a street bike with road tyres.
2. "Trail Riding" - Stuff that a well ridden large Adv bike with knobblies could make it through; forest single track trails, water-logged grass covered fields/gentle hills, moderate hill climbs, steep trails made up of 12" diameter rocks.
3. "Proper Offroad" - Trials-type obstacles, large fallen trees, rock gardens, hillclimbs with any section more than a couple of feet long that are vertical/near vertical. Impassable on any bike that isn't a proper dirtbike, or Trials machine. People who claim their GSA can do these things are almost always mistaken.


The main thing I would point out is that a lot (although certainly not all) smaller capacity dirt bike riders lack the skill/willingness to negotiate stuff in '3'. I have seen lots of small dirtbikes repeatedly fail to get up this hillclimb (I'm on an F800GS in this vid) and looped a G450X there when I was less experienced and I would very much class that as '2', albeit at the 'more challenging' end of the scale.



If you're riding with people for whom the sort of thing in the video is the limit of what they'll do on a little bike, you won't have too much trouble keeping up on a big bike. If you're with a load of ex-trials champs who love to go off piste, you won't be able to.
I'll agree with your list. I wouldn't want to take my GS-Adv on any of the harder trails over in the Hatfield-McCoy area, but I could ride it there.

I could take the TE250/450 (don't ask) over and ride all the tough trails, but I doubt I'd want to ride it there.

In a past life, I could only have 1 bike. I picked one that'd do 2-up, go off-road a fair bit, I could work on it myself, and still be fun enough to ride on a daily basis. Now, its a different story. 1 bike for the dirt, one for the pavement, and one for 'both road AND pavement' are on the list.

In the end, its all a compromise. The big bike will get you there, but you're limited to where you can ride it. The little bike can go more places, but it sucks to ride it there.

M
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:07 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by ShaftEd View Post
Yep, the old "lay it over in the sand, fill up the tire hole, stand it back up" trick. Works like a charm though.
Works in the mud too! DAMHIK!

Jim
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:08 PM   #59
markk53
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It has always puzzled me why a lot of GS riders think the Adventure model, carrying another 50-75lbs more weight, mostly up high, is somehow better suited for dirt and off-road stuff.

The GS guys are far from the only ones loading a bike down with a bunch of stuff that they don't need when casually riding. I see where KLX and WR 250 riders are sticking everything on them but the kitchen sink... well, maybe that too.

It's like they're riding the AlCan Highway every day. Just can't fathom that...

Of course there was the one guy I rode with on a dual sport ride about 20 years back. He was on an 80GS with bags and all. His comment was when he laid the bike on its side while riding the trails he didn't have to lift quite as far. I guess there is a benefit to the hard bags!
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Old 02-16-2013, 05:54 AM   #60
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Operator skill/experience inversely proportional to self-image/marketing hype.

Same reason the supposedly best-handling, fastest cars are the ones wrapped around telephone poles.

Same reason the claimed most "capable" SUV's are always the first ones into the ditch when the snow starts.
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