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Old 02-16-2013, 06:12 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
Dear Nikons etc,
On the Nikon side I still own D40,D90,D300,D3,D3x,D4,D800e, lets not talk Canon right now.
What was it you were trying to tell me about that I wasn't hopefully across already?
And I've extensively used D100, D70, D50, D1X, D2H, D2Xs, D200, D300, D90, D300, D700, D800, for shoots on top of many Canon's, Fuji's and Olympus, is this turning into a JM competition style thread now?

He mentioned landscapes, dynamic range is very important for those (even when the full extent isn't needed it gives you a safety cushion) and in my experience the DXO numbers hold pretty true for what you get out of the cameras and as I said the only thing that really changes is if they like highlights or shadows more but either way you've got the extra information in the RAW file. One search and you know to bias over or under exposure.

I've taken great pictures with 2.0 MP cell phone cameras, point and shoot cameras, and various DSLR's. Yes it is possible but for the circa 2006 cell phone I had to take it at very specific times of day so there was some contrast from the sun but not too much to blow everything out, the AF was slow so I had to plan a 2-3 seconds ahead, and with 2.0 MP and that quality of a sensor I had to get the framing dead on as there was no room to crop and still make them into 8x10's.

I had to make the progression from that cell phone camera though to a Nikon S600, then Olympus E-420, Fuji S5 Pro and finally to the D700 which is my main camera now still. I can tell you exactly what those DXO numbers do and it's give you more situations where you can capture the image, and when you do give you more latitude to mess up in framing or exposure. It would be great if we could always take perfectly exposed shots, or have enough light, but that's not always the case.
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NikonsAndVStroms screwed with this post 02-16-2013 at 06:31 AM
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:56 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by runpasthefence View Post
And that's why dxomark has lost credibility for me. In every test I've seen the 6D and 5DIII have been superior in high ISO performance. There seems to be over a 2 stop difference in what dxo assesses compared to what I've seen from image comparisons.

One example - http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Ca...00_noise.shtml

I'm going to dig deeper into the dynamic range stuff. If I'm honest, I rarely shoot over an ISO of 1600 anyway. If I can evidence of a profound difference in dynamic rang, I may sway back to Nikon.
I looked it up Looking around the 5D III seems to have a slight edge on it but I mean slight either of these will be night and day compared to your current rig. Think of it like moving up from a 600 to 1000....one will be slightly faster but either one will be a much bigger difference from your current bike.

OK that's trying to sell the D800 a bit I admit (I'm sure if my friend Noam was on here he'd be giving the opposite advice as he is in love with his 5D mkII) but for the other things your asking of it I'd use The D800 over the 5D for sure as it's the clear landscape rig to get right now, for dogs you give up 2 FPS for action but gain an D800's AF system. The 5D mkIII has improved in this area but I love the D800's. With astro-photography that's a whole other expensive hobby and to get really into it a lot of people get dedicated cameras with special IR filters.

If you want to try a Canon I'd rent one since the big difference beyond the things I've talked about is ergonomics. I'd do this anyways since you'll likely be locking yourself into the system by buying expensive lenses.

For internal processing they are different but neither stands out. Fuji and Olympus are the 2 I point to for examples where companies really nail color. I taught a ton of people on Canon's and they didn't have the initial output that grabbed me like Fuji/Oly. But this doesn't matter so much as you'll probably be throwing the RAW's into Lightroom or Aperture and can have your own profile to work with them.

One other thing I forgot which is big for Canon or Nikon, the 6D/D600 are smaller physically and that could be an advantage or disadvantage for you. Personally I like the larger cameras even though they weigh more it's easier to get a good grip on them. And if you plan to use any larger lenses the larger body will also help.
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:29 AM   #48
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No stress. I just find it funny when threads take this turn. Reminds me of:

"What do you guys think about how X brand's ABS performs in the wet?"

- "If you were a better rider, you wouldn't need ABS."

I quite understand that the person behind the camera makes the difference. It's a little ridiculous to presume that someone doesn't.
The argument for quality glass is a valid one, but it's not as if buying a higher priced body with more feature negates that. These things aren't mutually exclusive.
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:37 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by NikonsAndVStroms View Post
I looked it up Looking around the 5D III seems to have a slight edge on it but I mean slight either of these will be night and day compared to your current rig. Think of it like moving up from a 600 to 1000....one will be slightly faster but either one will be a much bigger difference from your current bike.

OK that's trying to sell the D800 a bit I admit (I'm sure if my friend Noam was on here he'd be giving the opposite advice as he is in love with his 5D mkII) but for the other things your asking of it I'd use The D800 over the 5D for sure as it's the clear landscape rig to get right now, for dogs you give up 2 FPS for action but gain an D800's AF system. The 5D mkIII has improved in this area but I love the D800's. With astro-photography that's a whole other expensive hobby and to get really into it a lot of people get dedicated cameras with special IR filters.

If you want to try a Canon I'd rent one since the big difference beyond the things I've talked about is ergonomics. I'd do this anyways since you'll likely be locking yourself into the system by buying expensive lenses.

For internal processing they are different but neither stands out. Fuji and Olympus are the 2 I point to for examples where companies really nail color. I taught a ton of people on Canon's and they didn't have the initial output that grabbed me like Fuji/Oly. But this doesn't matter so much as you'll probably be throwing the RAW's into Lightroom or Aperture and can have your own profile to work with them.

One other thing I forgot which is big for Canon or Nikon, the 6D/D600 are smaller physically and that could be an advantage or disadvantage for you. Personally I like the larger cameras even though they weigh more it's easier to get a good grip on them. And if you plan to use any larger lenses the larger body will also help.
I did ask to be talked out of the Canon, I suppose

Once I get to my computer I'm going to compare images base on dynamic range. This is something I've ignored until now. Honestly, I don't think any comparison I'll see on the web will matter. I'd really like to get some shots from both brands and compare how they both respond in post production.

The 6D does win in terms of weight and size. That'd be nice on the bike as I usually carry via backpack. However, like everything else with these camera, I'm sure the differences are hardly noticeable. I'm not really a weight weenie.

I really need to get out and get my hands on both. I'm familiar with navigating Nikons, but I'm not opposed to learning a new layout.
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:42 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by runpasthefence View Post
No stress. I just find it funny when threads take this turn. Reminds me of:

"What do you guys think about how X brand's ABS performs in the wet?"

- "If you were a better rider, you wouldn't need ABS."

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Old 02-16-2013, 07:44 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
of course it's a snapshot with a Sony dsc ... never claimed otherwise
That's a weird thing to lie about.

Quote:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...s/DSC_5522.jpg
EXIF IFD0

Camera Make = NIKON CORPORATION
Camera Model = NIKON D2H
Picture Orientation = normal (1)
X-Resolution = 72/1 ===> 72
Y-Resolution = 300/1 ===> 300
X/Y-Resolution Unit = inch (2)
Software / Firmware Version = Microsoft Windows Photo Viewer 6.1.7600.16385
Last Modified Date/Time = 2012:04:10 06:10:27
Y/Cb/Cr Positioning (Subsampling) = centered / center of pixel array (1)

EXIF Sub IFD

Exposure Time (1 / Shutter Speed) = 1/320 second ===> 0.00313 second
Lens F-Number / F-Stop = 9/1 ===> /9
Exposure Program = normal program (2)
ISO Speed Ratings = 200
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:57 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by runpasthefence View Post
I did ask to be talked out of the Canon, I suppose
It was like putting up the Bat symbol for me though I do own 1 Canon, an EOS650.

Quote:
Originally Posted by runpasthefence View Post
Once I get to my computer I'm going to compare images base on dynamic range. This is something I've ignored until now. Honestly, I don't think any comparison I'll see on the web will matter. I'd really like to get some shots from both brands and compare how they both respond in post production.

The 6D does win in terms of weight and size. That'd be nice on the bike as I usually carry via backpack. However, like everything else with these camera, I'm sure the differences are hardly noticeable. I'm not really a weight weenie.

I really need to get out and get my hands on both. I'm familiar with navigating Nikons, but I'm not opposed to learning a new layout.
Do you have a good camera shot nearby that would have em all in stock? The test I'd do is wait till later in the day but not sunset and do 3 shots with a 1 stop difference between them just outside the store so you have the ground/sky which will be pretty different at that point so you'll have roughly properly exposed and the over/under. Make sure to have em all with you since light can change quickly, and then just try those images out at home in lightroom.

http://www.borrowlenses.com/ seemed like a good place in case you want to get a Canon to mess around with for a few days. I haven't used them myself (I needed a 2 week rental so buying used wasn't much more and I got 90% of my money back when I sold it) but I heard good things and their customer support was pretty quick.
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:13 AM   #53
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That's a weird thing to lie about.
Oooh.

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Old 02-16-2013, 11:15 AM   #54
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"Gaining a stop..."

I suppose when ya'll mention that you mean that the sensor on these cameras is so good that it allows you to use the lens in a not so optimum f-stop, but still obtain the benfits of the "good" f-stop?
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:33 AM   #55
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Lobby, 'stops' are used a couple of ways in this conversation.

A sensor with clean output at ISO 3200 has one-stop advantage over one with clean ISO 1600, in that you can double your shutter speed at a given aperture (allowing handholding or reducing motion blur in low light).

The human eye can also resolve around 17 stops of light at a given pupil dilation, meaning it picks up that much shadow and highlight detail before showing pure black or pure white. The 'dynamic range' charts N&V posted indicate how much contrast a camera sensor can pick up in a given scene, measured the same way - the best ones are around 14 stops, older models as low as 10. So you 'gain' shadow or highlight detail, or both.

Digital is finally coming close to film in the dynamic range it can capture.

Except for cy.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:40 PM   #56
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In other words, I was completely wrong in my prior post?

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Old 02-16-2013, 01:26 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by NikonsAndVStroms View Post
And I've extensively used D100, D70, D50, D1X, D2H, D2Xs, D200, D300, D90, D300, D700, D800, for shoots on top of many Canon's, Fuji's and Olympus, is this turning into a JM competition style thread now?

He mentioned landscapes, dynamic range is very important for those (even when the full extent isn't needed it gives you a safety cushion) and in my experience the DXO numbers hold pretty true for what you get out of the cameras and as I said the only thing that really changes is if they like highlights or shadows more but either way you've got the extra information in the RAW file. One search and you know to bias over or under exposure.

I've taken great pictures with 2.0 MP cell phone cameras, point and shoot cameras, and various DSLR's. Yes it is possible but for the circa 2006 cell phone I had to take it at very specific times of day so there was some contrast from the sun but not too much to blow everything out, the AF was slow so I had to plan a 2-3 seconds ahead, and with 2.0 MP and that quality of a sensor I had to get the framing dead on as there was no room to crop and still make them into 8x10's.

I had to make the progression from that cell phone camera though to a Nikon S600, then Olympus E-420, Fuji S5 Pro and finally to the D700 which is my main camera now still. I can tell you exactly what those DXO numbers do and it's give you more situations where you can capture the image, and when you do give you more latitude to mess up in framing or exposure. It would be great if we could always take perfectly exposed shots, or have enough light, but that's not always the case.
Yes, yes, but what was it you are trying to say?
He is not making a living from this. He is not selling images, and anyone who has to ask "what oil do I need" must surely miss the point, let alone those telling him the lubeinessesnce of each brand.

Now honestly, all this dxo measuring is just dick swinging bullshit. It is a valid measurement of a sensor, and nothing else. When you by a camera you buy into a system. The 2 biggest, honda and yamaha are just as good as each other. One year a new model might leapfrog a tad. Let him have his Canon.

Now _cy_ where's that pic.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:05 PM   #58
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Yes, yes, but what was it you are trying to say?
He is not making a living from this. He is not selling images, and anyone who has to ask "what oil do I need" must surely miss the point, let alone those telling him the lubeinessesnce of each brand.

Now honestly, all this dxo measuring is just dick swinging bullshit. It is a valid measurement of a sensor, and nothing else. When you by a camera you buy into a system. The 2 biggest, honda and yamaha are just as good as each other. One year a new model might leapfrog a tad. Let him have his Canon.

Now _cy_ where's that pic.
What point am I missing?
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:32 PM   #59
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What point am I missing?
Tell me what advantages you will have using a 6D over a second hand 5dMII or any other camera?
Just off the top of your head mind you, not comparing endless spec sheets and dxo specs, what is it that says you want/need a 6D, or tell me why you don't.

What does this camera have that you need that you can't live without?

How does it fit with your current camera arsenal and what advantages does it bring?

That is the question, but can you answer it?
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:37 PM   #60
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Tell me what advantages you will have using a 6D over a second hand 5dMII or any other camera?
Just off the top of your head mind you, not comparing endless spec sheets and dxo specs, what is it that says you want/need a 6D, or tell me why you don't.

What does this camera have that you need that you can't live without?

How does it fit with your current camera arsenal and what advantages does it bring?

That is the question, but can you answer it?


I already answered this.....it expands the situations where he can take photos/gives him more margin of error in his exposure.

He or anyone could get a compact, or aps-c camera and be able to take good photos but you get a FF for the reasons I mentioned above among others.
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