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Old 04-09-2013, 05:08 AM   #256
dirty_sanchez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epoch of Entropy View Post
rtwpaul,
-- Invest in Loctite. Go buy stock in them now, you'll be using enough of it shortly to increase their company value noticeably. Make sure to use the "Automotive" blue which is oil/gas resistant, as the other "blue" will just erode away.
Awesome thread Paul!

Not itchin' for trouble or an arm wrestling match, but I gotta step in and clear up something that might confuse the inmates and further confuse the AutoShack guy behind the counter.

All Loctite anaerobic products like threadlockers, threadsealants, gasket eliminators and retaining compounds are oil and fuel resistant. Likewise, you have a pretty low chance of choosing an RTV silicone suitable for gas and oil service if you don't know what to look for. Any Blue Threadlocker is completely appropriate to use even on the inside of an engine. There isn't an "Automotive Grade" marketed threadlocker. Threadlockers are color coded to indicate their breakloose torque, and prevailing off torque strength. Purple, Blue, Red, and Green. For the most part, various threadlockers are selected based on the size of the threaded fastener. Blue threadlockers are the only color threadlocker I use on my bikes. Parts never fall off of my bike.

I had to jump in because there might be an inmate who befuddles the parts counter guy at the local purveyor of car parts by asking for something they read on the interwebs.

Here's a good thread to get enquiring minds up to speed on stopping leaks and fastener loosening from vibration and thermocycling:

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265016

Dirty
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:13 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Epoch of Entropy View Post
-- The single biggest performance mod you can make is to build a "racing" air box side panel. This is well documented, give it a look.
The pre high-flow head models will detonate themselves to death in stock form let alone with any change made to increase cylinder pressures. In fact, I will not put a pre-high flow head model on my dyno anymore at all until I know that significant measures have been taken to eliminate detonation. Even a high-flow head model makes me nervous without the exhaust flow having been improved. On the high-flow head model, a slip on such as the Leo Vince is enough to get the engine in a safe zone. The same cannot be said for the pre-high flow head model. In fact, it's likely that a good full system plus a reduction in piston surface area & compression (see http://www.moto-lab.com/gallery/view?itemid=309) aren't enough. I made both of these changes and then tested 91 octane fuel against 89 octane, and there was a loss in horsepower. That means that the timing was still too advanced, there was still too much compression, the squish clearance needed to be tightened, and/or there was still not enough exhaust flow. See http://www.moto-lab.com/gallery/view?itemid=109 and http://www.moto-lab.com/gallery/view?itemid=310 (click image for a high-res view).
Quote:
This will probably require a rejet,
This is an understatement.

Regards,

Derek

motolab screwed with this post 04-09-2013 at 09:41 AM
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:58 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by motolab View Post
The pre high-flow head models will detonate themselves to death in stock form let alone with any change made to increase cylinder pressures.
Do you have a link or a thread to any more info on this?

Are you saying that a low flow head should button the side door up or risk destroying the motor at a later date?
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Old 04-09-2013, 12:15 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Boon Booni View Post
Do you have a link or a thread to any more info on this?
What other information would you like?
Quote:
Are you saying that a low flow head should button the side door up or risk destroying the motor at a later date?
I am saying that on a pre-high flow head model, without significant measures being taken to increase detonation resistance, no actions should be taken to increase cylinder filling (which includes things like removing airbox lids or installing race lids).

Regards,

Derek
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:27 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by motolab View Post
On the high-flow head model, a slip on such as the Leo Vince is enough to get the engine in a safe zone.
Derek, so based on what you said, i'm taking it that the stock can or the Leo Vince (which model# ) is the best thing to have on your bike...but only the Leo Vince if you are making engine mods...

as i'll be on the road for significant time i am looking for the lightest obviouslyand the can that needs repacking the least...in your opinion or anyone else want to chime in what would be the best choice for: light/ minimal sound increase / possible power gain/ minimal repack?
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:45 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
The pre high-flow head models will detonate themselves to death in stock form let alone with any change made to increase cylinder pressures.
Good info for some no doubt but not so relevant to Paul's 03 625 with the high flow head & switchable ignition advance.

My 640 has an SXC muffler, BST carb, so the same induction/exhaust as that 625. I have vented the sidecover. Mine has done several thousand kilometres on regular grade fuel in the low octane setting with no problems. As has been mentioned, be ready for about 10% worse mileage though.

But on really dodgy fuel would it be worth taping up my airbox sidecover vent to reduce the chance of detonation?

I've found the SXC end can pretty good. I repacked it at about 70K km. The 2 section design means it doesn't get too loud even when the packing is mostly gone. I did have the rivets in the outlet cap start to rattle loose but the temporary hose clip around the end fix held for about 60K km until I repacked it so not a major issue.

Cheers
Clint
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:17 PM   #262
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I had the SXC can as well and the stock aluminum rivets didn't hold up. I replaced them with all stainless rivets. I had to get a $30 air rivet gun from Harbor Freight in order to use them-no more crushed fingers though!

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Old 04-09-2013, 03:34 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by rtwpaul View Post
Derek, so based on what you said, i'm taking it that the stock can or the Leo Vince (which model# ) is the best thing to have on your bike...but only the Leo Vince if you are making engine mods...
Not exactly. I'm saying that if you are opening the airbox on a high-flow head model, it should at minimum be done together with a good aftermarket can in order to keep the engine away from detonation. The Leo Vince part number is 3940E.

Regards,

Derek
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Old 04-09-2013, 03:53 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez View Post
I had the SXC can as well and the stock aluminum rivets didn't hold up. I replaced them with all stainless rivets. I had to get a $30 air rivet gun from Harbor Freight in order to use them-no more crushed fingers though!

Dirty
Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
Not exactly. I'm saying that if you are opening the airbox on a high-flow head model, it should at minimum be done together with a good aftermarket can in order to keep the engine away from detonation. The Leo Vince part number is 3940E.

Regards,

Derek
so based on these two answers....sounds like a game show

if i stay with the SXC can or go to the Leo Vince either way its rivets, which means a drill and a new set of rivets and installation tool, basic or air to do a pack change...so as none of these is possible in the middle of nowhere has anyone tried an alternative? cinch nuts/ nutserts maybe

or

realistically how long can you go without a packing change before reaching civilization AND not doing any damage to the can and/ or the motor?
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:22 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtwpaul View Post
so based on these two answers....sounds like a game show

if i stay with the SXC can or go to the Leo Vince either way its rivets, which means a drill and a new set of rivets and installation tool, basic or air to do a pack change...so as none of these is possible in the middle of nowhere has anyone tried an alternative? cinch nuts/ nutserts maybe

or

realistically how long can you go without a packing change before reaching civilization AND not doing any damage to the can and/ or the motor?
The most restrictive exhaust and probably the one Motolab is referring to in talking detonation is the stock S.S. Steel supertrapp that comes OEM on the A and E models... This exhaust can easily be opened up in about a half hour by removing the endcap, the disks and drilling a whole bunch of 1/8" holes {swiss cheese} in the end plate... Then you can tune the output and increase flow by adding disks... The downside to this system is the weight and bulk it adds... On the plus side is that this unit never needs repacking and it will go for 10 years problem free unless it falls off the bike due to mount fatigue...

The stock SXC can is already a fairly free flowing exhaust to begin with, much more so than the OEM Supertrapp... The SXC can is a straight through design rather than the flow reversals that are contained in the Supertrapp... If you want more flow out of the SXC can just add the SMC endcap, I have one sitting here if you want it... In changing the packing, forget the rivets, with you being an accomplished welder you could jet weld some nuts onto the cap and use M 5 or M 6 bolts to hold her together... I have run mine for 20K km on the lower grade FMF packing with no blow out issues... If you use the better pink spaghetti strand stuff you'll likely get 50-60 K km like Clintz, unless you're on the hammer all the time...
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:31 PM   #266
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I don't doubt your expertise but my experience on my '00 low flow with the competition air box & muffler has had no issues with detonation using regular grade gas no matter the temperature or use. No knock or ping when I can't find premium in 30, 000 miles worth of experience.

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Old 04-09-2013, 04:42 PM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtwpaul View Post
so based on these two answers....sounds like a game show

if i stay with the SXC can or go to the Leo Vince either way its rivets, which means a drill and a new set of rivets and installation tool, basic or air to do a pack change...so as none of these is possible in the middle of nowhere has anyone tried an alternative? cinch nuts/ nutserts maybe
or

realistically how long can you go without a packing change before reaching civilization AND not doing any damage to the can and/ or the motor?
Hi Paul,
I'm not a KTM guy but have dealt with a variety of aftermarket cans on different bikes.

Not sure they are made for your bike ... but ... Austrian built Remus cans are an excellent product. No re-packing required as stainless wool is used internally.
Superb build quality (mine were Ti) I put 90,000 miles on a set on my '02 Vstrom.

Unlike several FMF's I've had and also one Leo Vince ... no loose rivets on my hard used Remus cans. Great longevity, mellow sound, NOT LOUD.

I know Remus make a variety or cans ... not sure if they cover KTM singles or not. Just a thought, maybe worth a look.
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:56 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by motolab View Post
The pre high-flow head models will detonate themselves to death in stock form let alone with any change made to increase cylinder pressures. In fact, I will not put a pre-high flow head model on my dyno anymore at all until I know that significant measures have been taken to eliminate detonation. Even a high-flow head model makes me nervous without the exhaust flow having been improved. On the high-flow head model, a slip on such as the Leo Vince is enough to get the engine in a safe zone. The same cannot be said for the pre-high flow head model. In fact, it's likely that a good full system plus a reduction in piston surface area & compression (see http://www.moto-lab.com/gallery/view?itemid=309) aren't enough. I made both of these changes and then tested 91 octane fuel against 89 octane, and there was a loss in horsepower. That means that the timing was still too advanced, there was still too much compression, the squish clearance needed to be tightened, and/or there was still not enough exhaust flow. See http://www.moto-lab.com/gallery/view?itemid=109 and http://www.moto-lab.com/gallery/view?itemid=310 (click image for a high-res view).This is an understatement.

Regards,

Derek
Is there something about the hi-flow head that actually makes the engine less likely to detonate, or is it partly the forged piston in the hi-flow models that is less likely to break apart when the engine does detonate? I've had a piston break once (before I bought the bike) and seize once on my 99 LC4, I think it was due to a plugged piston cooling oil channel in the engine, but always interested to know more about how to keep this engine alive for as long as possible.
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:58 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by gunnerbuck View Post
The most restrictive exhaust and probably the one Motolab is referring to in talking detonation is the stock S.S.
I was indeed referring to the Supercrap.
Quote:
In changing the packing, forget the rivets, with you being an accomplished welder you could jet weld some nuts onto the cap and use M 5 or M 6 bolts to hold her together.
This is sound advice.

Regards,

Derek
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:01 PM   #270
clintnz
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Originally Posted by gunnerbuck View Post
In changing the packing, forget the rivets, with you being an accomplished welder you could jet weld some nuts onto the cap and use M 5 or M 6 bolts to hold her together... ...
This is what I did when I repacked mine. I gave the nuts a slight squish in the vice before welding them on so the bolts don't rattle off which has worked well. I'd stick with the SXC can myself, not too heavy, $0, plus known to last well & breathe well.

Cheers
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