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Old 03-15-2013, 06:08 PM   #31
squonker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willys View Post
Can I ask why...this is an issue for you? Just curious?

Do you lend your vehicle to others and trust those to obey the laws while borrowing your vehicle? If so isn't it then your responsibility to decide if those people are resonsible enough to obey the laws in your vehicle just out of curticy to you. Similar to damaging the vehicle.
I'm just curious as to why you feel differently about this...not looking for a war so to speak ....I personally never lend my possessions to anyone who I think would not look after them and return them to me as they found them when I handed them over. I never lend a vehicle. I have lost a friend over a frig'in 3/4" wrench.......My thought process is, if you borrow something you should return it in the very same condition you recieved it in or if this isn't possible and you damage it, then it's your responsiblity to replace the object with a new one identical to the one you borrowed. It's a simple concept in my head. If you rented the same object and returned it damaged you would be dinged with the same resulting fine, cost etc....no?
So, if you transfer this mentality to the lending of your vehicle, you are responsible for it's condition when it is returned to it's owner also. The probelms now lies with tickets etc......this is something that the owner can't control so easily can they......so the problem now falls on the owner to decide IF the person they are going to lend their vehicle will stay within the confides of the laws so there isn't any issues down the road. So, if these laws that are being suggested where the speed cameras and phone cameras are put into place, it now comes into focus that it is your plate being taken and thusly your licience that is being damaged......it only makes sense that you would take greater care to who you lend your vehicle to. This is what is tying up the courts over speed cameras etc.....we are arguing that it wasn't me who was driving etc etc and we don't like the fact it's our licience that is being affected.
I know I'm being hard to get along with....but if we accept this and allow these cameras to do their jobs....I personally think the roads would be a much safer place to ride in the end. Which is really what we want in the long run ...no?
We all break the laws, we all know this and we all try our best to get away with it. But if we just allow these laws to come to be then we would all drive with a our eyes open watching for these traps and thus see more of what is going on around us while driving. No?

Damn I talk too much.....lol.!!!

Once again, not looking for an arguement just curious.....
Hey willys, sorry man - somehow I missed this post otherwise I would have replied earlier.

My only point of contention is that it is bullshit that the car is what is insured rather than the driver. You (or I) can be as careful as we like about who we lend our vehicles to, but if something happens (whether it was avoidable or not) why on earth should it be anyone other than the person who was driving that is responsible? It isn't the issue of damage to the vehicle, it is the potential of tickets and insurance rate increases resulting from a fender bender that is my bugbear. Those are things that I am ultimately responsible for, and that's horseshit if I wasn't driving.

An analogy would be that I leave town for six months and rent my digs out while I'm away. The people I let it to seem great, have good references, everything checks out. Then something happens after they move in, one of them murders the other in my house - am I responsible (and expected to take on the punishment) because I own the place? I would bloody well hope not!

That's all I am bothered about - having to pay the price of someone else's folly.

to you too.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:59 PM   #32
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I understand your opinion and agree with the theory.....but it's not how it works at the moment. I am about to insure a teenage daughter for the first time......and I am worried!!! She is capable of ruining my decades of excellent driving record in a matter of minutes! Can I stop it from happening and still be married....not likely! I'm sure you can understand. IMHO...she should have her own insurance and suffer her own conscequences of her driving NOT me.
BUT....as the it is at the moment.....other than her paying for resurfacing of all of the roads for the amount of insurance costs it would cost for her to be on her own policy.....she has to be on mine!
But if she gets one ticket....that is what will happen...she will get one chance. Yes I'm a hard ass and a bad parent if that is what it means......but I won't allow someone who isn't going to respect the good policy benefits she is given by driving on our policy to ruin it for us.

It should be as you say....the driver who is ticketed but when using cameras, that isn't possible. They need to have chips in our licences that can be electronically identified so as to target the one who is driving. Then it will work, but until that happens...we are stuck with what we have. It is better to get unsafe drivers off the road and for the few who get effected by the wrong person driving....so be it, it'll have to be sorted out in court if possible.

I still think it's better than allowing these people to drive and text,phone, speed whatever....get people to follow the law is best.....yes I'm getting old.....lol.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:51 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squonker View Post
Hey willys, sorry man - somehow I missed this post otherwise I would have replied earlier.

My only point of contention is that it is bullshit that the car is what is insured rather than the driver. You (or I) can be as careful as we like about who we lend our vehicles to, but if something happens (whether it was avoidable or not) why on earth should it be anyone other than the person who was driving that is responsible? It isn't the issue of damage to the vehicle, it is the potential of tickets and insurance rate increases resulting from a fender bender that is my bugbear. Those are things that I am ultimately responsible for, and that's horseshit if I wasn't driving.
An analogy would be that I leave town for six months and rent my digs out while I'm away. The people I let it to seem great, have good references, everything checks out. Then something happens after they move in, one of them murders the other in my house - am I responsible (and expected to take on the punishment) because I own the place? I would bloody well hope not!

That's all I am bothered about - having to pay the price of someone else's folly.

to you too.
The vehicle is insured to protect you from your own indiscretions. The driver/rider could bolt from any incident in a heartbeat to avoid the consequences and put the burden on you to prove otherwise. I could point out many scenarios for you where you would be screwed.

Your digs rental analogy? Too muchperhaps,
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:41 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by willys View Post
I understand your opinion and agree with the theory.....but it's not how it works at the moment. I am about to insure a teenage daughter for the first time......and I am worried!!! She is capable of ruining my decades of excellent driving record in a matter of minutes! Can I stop it from happening and still be married....not likely! I'm sure you can understand. IMHO...she should have her own insurance and suffer her own conscequences of her driving NOT me.
BUT....as the it is at the moment.....other than her paying for resurfacing of all of the roads for the amount of insurance costs it would cost for her to be on her own policy.....she has to be on mine!
But if she gets one ticket....that is what will happen...she will get one chance. Yes I'm a hard ass and a bad parent if that is what it means......but I won't allow someone who isn't going to respect the good policy benefits she is given by driving on our policy to ruin it for us.
I at some point will face the same dilemma. Understanding that insurance is merely a business, it certainly is unfair to surcharge a demographic based on probabilty and statistics. The offenders of the basic policy should be surcharged in a greater amount than the current standard. Unfortunately, insurance companies, much like banks are provided exceptional and favorable methods to maintain their profit margins.

This is something every parent has to overcome, like it or not with our current situation. Good luck!
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Old 03-16-2013, 05:57 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by willys View Post
IMHO...she should have her own insurance and suffer her own conscequences of her driving NOT me.
Agreed 100%, hence my saying that it should be the driver that is insured, not the car.

Cheers
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Old 03-16-2013, 05:58 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by sparklr View Post
The vehicle is insured to protect you from your own indiscretions.
The best way in protect me from my own indiscretions is to insure me, not my vehicle.
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:05 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by willys View Post
I still think it's better than allowing these people to drive and text,phone, speed whatever....get people to follow the law is best.....yes I'm getting old.....lol.
Wake up people...... If it were about saftey cell phones would not work when traveling at x speed. Car would not be able to travel faster than X speed. Cars would not start with X amount of alcohol. All easy fixes with simple technology.

It is about your overloard taxing and controling you. It is having ways to surcomvent the rules thay make for us the little guy. This creates the will to ignor and fight the system.

And good on the others who think it is a good idea to surcharge someone who wants thier day in court. SHould we burn the charter while we are at it ???
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:56 AM   #38
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Augh....a true redneck.....down with the man statement....hold my beer comment.....

If accidents happen and it's found that a specific cause is deemed the reason....then the man makes new rules for us who don't follow the simple sensible things while operating a vehicle. How many times does it take before someone says enough is enough? We never learn, we always try and push the limits it's in our nature. No-one likes being told what they can and can't do......plain and simple. We all know this.
BUT....when people are killing or being killed because of a stupid action, then it's in the best interest for the whole to bring into effect some rules saying....ok dickheads, we are tired of you all trying to kill each other and having to pay to keep you alive or fix you, so we are now making a new rule to help you stop from doing this dangerous activity you are doing. Plain and simple. Most sensible people will agree with the new law or rules as they can see what is happening.....it's only the few who think we are getting trodden on by the man that say screw you......I won't stop try and stop me.....they always do.......they never win.....ever. Seat belt ring a bell? I hated wearing one, it took me a long time and 2 good scares being caught and the thought of ins. costs going through the roof that finally forced me to comply. Now, I feel naked driving without one. You get used to it.
If the cell phone wasn't causing any problems it would never have been an issue would it? It has been easily proven that people while driving and using their cell phones just can't do both things well. So, common sense says it's driving that is more important.....cell phones will have to wait until you have parked etc before you can use them....is it that difficult to deal with? Really?
The world won't come to a screaming hault because you can't use your cell phone.....it still rotated on it's axis before they were invented didn't it?

It just comes down to common sense folks....not that someone is trying to take something from us.....common sense for safety sake......One day you might be like me....a rear end survivor with herniated discs and a plate in your neck wondering what happened to the rest of your life. It might never happen to you and I hope it never does.......but if someone isn't paying attention to you while driving behind you and you too have come to a stop at a red light like I was......it takes a fraction of a second and then what......sure you will maybe get some money from their ins. company....but all the things you valued in life now are so much more difficult or impossible to do without major pain meds......what about any retirement plans.....gone.....think about it.

Not for me, maybe your wife, children, relatives or just your skin.....?



But no.......fight the man and buck the system....because that is the only reason they are doing this and any rules you don't like just because it upsets you......ya right!
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:00 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by WildAnCrazymtl View Post
Wake up people...... If it were about saftey cell phones would not work when traveling at x speed. Car would not be able to travel faster than X speed. Cars would not start with X amount of alcohol. All easy fixes with simple technology.

It is about your overloard taxing and controling you. It is having ways to surcomvent the rules thay make for us the little guy. This creates the will to ignor and fight the system.

And good on the others who think it is a good idea to surcharge someone who wants thier day in court. SHould we burn the charter while we are at it ???
Yes we should,,,we should go back to the BNA Act. All this cursed current act has done is offer a make-work project for lawyers.
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Old 03-17-2013, 02:08 PM   #40
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Augh....a true redneck.....down with the man statement....hold my beer comment.....

....

But no.......fight the man and buck the system....because that is the only reason they are doing this and any rules you don't like just because it upsets you......ya right!
Great response! Very entertaining and very well written too!

But you missed the point or I was not clear!

My rant is the overloard uses strong arm tactics to enforce his rules with cops and fines.

If you don't want people useing thier phones when they drive make it so a phone in motion over x mph does not work. It could be done, not very hard. But no fines collected and it would piss off the cell companies that they propably have a vested interest in. ps. I agree with the idea of no cell phones while driving.

Have all new cars come out with built in intoxiliser and retro fit older models. Can't do that would piss off the bar and restaurant people...

Sir I agree with your ideas, most of them anyway.

I disagree with the overloards way of trying to make it happen! His way will never work, and I think you know that! All I am asking/saying is if the overloard is serious about some of these isuses why does he not use his head instead of his arms!
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Old 03-17-2013, 05:43 PM   #41
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If you don't want people useing thier phones when they drive make it so a phone in motion over x mph does not work. It could be done, not very hard.
Consider bumper to bumper slow moving grid lock, passengers, busses, boats, trains..........
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:36 AM   #42
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The best way to hurt someone is in their wallet! Or indirectly their ins. policies...which result in a good smack to the wallet.
We all need to ride or drive , well I do. I don't know what I would do if that was taken away. Well I do, I would do it illegally.....that is how much it means to me. So, I now follow the rules, well as close to them as I can to stay clear of the man....so to speak.

So, to force or get something done easily is to make it hurt and I mean hurt not sting. Fines and points seems to work and work well.

Is it right? That is up to your way of seeing the big picture.

Yes I have thought that with technology in today's world why this hasn't been added into every vehicle as it moves down the assembly line. IMHO....the guys on the street would figure it out in a matter of days if not hours how to bypass it and we're back to square one once again.

So now we're back to getting hurt once again. It is simple......either learn to accept the laws or get hurt......we do have a choice.....don't we?
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:39 AM   #43
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Thats fine, because its punishing the driver not the owner over the vehicle.
then you agree that the driver should be fined for speeding, rather than the owner of the car???
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Old 03-18-2013, 07:27 AM   #44
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then you agree that the driver should be fined for speeding, rather than the owner of the car???
In most cases, yes.

In the case you are referring to, then no. That was your fault for lending me the car.
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Old 03-18-2013, 07:51 AM   #45
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Damn....someone else that see's it as I do..!
It's your responcibility to lend your vehicle to a responcible person....if you do, nothing will come of it, if you don't .....you pay for your mistake!

Simple really.

Plus after you get the fine etc they won't ever get to borrow your vehicle again....if you have any smarts that is.
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