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Old 03-18-2013, 08:24 AM   #46
WildAnCrazymtl
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The problem with fines is they are unfair and intended to hurt the lower class to lower middle class, what about the ruling class. That's right the ruling class makes the rules. For the fine system to be fair and have the desired effect on everyone the fine should be a percentage of your previous years tax return. For the offspring of the rich let the fine be a percentage of the household income...

Just a thought!
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:11 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by willys View Post
Damn....someone else that see's it as I do..!
It's your responcibility to lend your vehicle to a responcible person....if you do, nothing will come of it, if you don't .....you pay for your mistake!

Simple really.

Plus after you get the fine etc they won't ever get to borrow your vehicle again....if you have any smarts that is.
I'm thinking along this way as well. It's entirely the responsibility of the vehicle owner to give his keys to someone of high regard, and to take responsibility for this if he is not a good judge of character. It's not the responsibility of the state [government, police, municipality, etc] to do go around trying to determine who was driving your car, it's the car owners responsibility. As an example in B.C., currently if you activate a red light camera here [in other words, blow a solid red light], the license plate equipped car gets a picture taken of it in the middle of the intersection. The registered operator of that vehicle gets the fine, but as the 'state' cannot determine the operator's identity, the registered operator does NOT get the additional 3 demerit points on their driving record. IMO, this is totally logical.
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:17 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by WildAnCrazymtl View Post
The problem with fines is they are unfair and intended to hurt the lower class to lower middle class, what about the ruling class. That's right the ruling class makes the rules. For the fine system to be fair and have the desired effect on everyone the fine should be a percentage of your previous years tax return. For the offspring of the rich let the fine be a percentage of the household income...

Just a thought!

The fines are not unfair and intended to hurt the lower class, as you may think. A fine is designated for a certain breakage of law, and that's it. Ruling class?? Your really stretching things here. How far you want this way of thinking to go? People of lower income get off scott free? Totally illogical thinking. People of lower income can't think for themselves?? Please,,,,
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:59 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
The fines are not unfair and intended to hurt the lower class, as you may think. A fine is designated for a certain breakage of law, and that's it. Ruling class?? Your really stretching things here. How far you want this way of thinking to go? People of lower income get off scott free? Totally illogical thinking. People of lower income can't think for themselves?? Please,,,,
Yes they are my friend! People with lower income would not get off scott free, they would recieve a fine proportional to thier income. What is illogical to me is that one person must work two days or more to pay a $200.00 fine when the other guy pays for the same fine in a days work and the elite pays for it in a few hours work or less. By the way, a lot of the lower income people I know can think for themselves... Their thoughts are just ignored because of where they come from.

The current system is not fair, just easier to administrate and easier on the more fortunate...
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Old 03-18-2013, 03:38 PM   #50
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Flawed logic.

Penalty for crime is universal. A rich man faces the same penalty as a poor man.

Personally, I think that someone who cries foul over such things has probably
broken the rules too often himself.

It would take me a 2.5 shifts at my job to pay a $200 fine. I'm smart enough to play
by the rules and keep my money in my pocket.
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Old 03-18-2013, 07:27 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by WildAnCrazymtl View Post
Yes they are my friend! People with lower income would not get off scott free, they would recieve a fine proportional to thier income. What is illogical to me is that one person must work two days or more to pay a $200.00 fine when the other guy pays for the same fine in a days work and the elite pays for it in a few hours work or less. By the way, a lot of the lower income people I know can think for themselves... Their thoughts are just ignored because of where they come from.

The current system is not fair, just easier to administrate and easier on the more fortunate...

Just wanted to clarify, I disagree entirely with your logic. This surely will be the downfall of your region of the country. Yes, there are those that are fortunate to be born into money, but I think those are in the minority, most of those with money have worked their ass off.
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Old 03-18-2013, 07:55 PM   #52
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I appreciate your opinion. Unfortunately, you have not succeeded in changing my mind. The way you word it, you make it sound like the revenue collector,,,,,,sorry, traffic police officer, goes out and gets one ticket dispersal per shift. I'm not sure that's the case. No, they usually always set up shop by hiding at the bottom of a hill, in an area quite notable and widely recognized as being speed posted inacurately slower that it would be anywhere else in the world. Safety is not enhanced in these classic cases, it's all about the money. And there they sit and line them up. And don't get me started about the 40km/hr instant impound roadside judgement in BC, based on police officer visual judgement alone without speed detection device confirmation!!! WTF?
You're point about the rich continuing to be able to drive is also inacurate. Even rich people who easily can pay off huge fines, still have their license taken away if they are unable to understand the characteristically conservative speed postings in this province.
I, and most all of my riding friends have chosen over the last few years to do most of their extended riding holidays in the western United States. Not just the silly speed postings within BC, but the main reason is the vastly more entertaining roads found south of the '49th', and the sheer number of them, and the relative thin use of other traffic compared to the minimal, and clogged roads here. And of course, the better weather. And the cheaper fuel, and hotels,,,,food. Rant over.

On the other hand, drivers who text offer a clear danger to me as a motorcyclist, as well as a car driver, so I give full support to the traffic patrol in this regard pressing down on this habit [addiction] among the car driving crowd.

Just to let you know, My last speeding infraction was in BC, in 1994.
I agree,if the clerks havent figured out how to process tickets and deposit money quickly by now they have themselves to blame,they set up traps here in the US and write 100's of tickets in a morning,a single busy cop can do 8 in an hour.
Times 400.00 per each 10 mph over ticket.
If their beurocracy cant make a profit on that they are paying them selves too much.
Now they charge an extra 50.00 just to allow a ticket getter to go to traffic school,+ the ticket fee + the school fee.
I say bullshit to them saying they dont break even writing tickets.
Cops are paid to be out there rather they write tickets or not,they say there are no quotas,either way they pick a good hiding spot they can nail people all day,especially with their cars with the lights that are flush and dont show from the front so they can sneak up easier.
Its a racket and the rates are being raised all the time.
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:51 AM   #53
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The solution is very easy.....don't break the law and keep all your hard earned money in your pocket.

Not to offend anyone who needs to break the laws to get somewhere on time or someone who needs to fly through their windshield or allow someone else who is going to break the laws while driving their car irresponcably......we all have the same choice to make......obey the laws, whatever they are....OR...pay the consequence of not doing so. We all get the same fine or punishment or that wouldn't be fair as a whole. Which would start another revolution! Are we not all equal? We all could have chosen to learn way back when at school....some of us did better than others and that now is reflected in their earnings. Simple.
I'm not a top wage earner either or ever was......nor did I always obey the laws. But in today's world where the costs of driving or riding are directly related to breaking the laws....it only makes sense to start obeying them.

Bring on photo radar, photo cell pics....photo anything.....it proves it was you in the car at the time with a cell phone in your hand or a book or a can of hair spray, whatever.....driving is an operation that requires us to pay attention to what is going on around us or bad things can happen. We after all are the ones who suffer the most when drivers don't concentrate.....we are motorcyclists....aren't we? We have an almost zero chance of survival against any car or truck when the two meet. So....why the complaining about laws that protect us???
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:48 AM   #54
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+1
Driving is a skill, not an autonomic process.
There are rules and penalties for very good reason and if you
don't like the rules, stay off the road.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:00 AM   #55
WildAnCrazymtl
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Originally Posted by GP640 View Post
Flawed logic.

Really, how so, care to explain ?

Penalty for crime is universal. A rich man faces the same penalty as a poor man.

True, however talking on the cell phone is not a criminal infraction, it is an administrative infraction... They are different!

Personally, I think that someone who cries foul over such things has probably
broken the rules too often himself.

Never have, my last administrative infraction dates back to over ten years for speeding!

It would take me a 2.5 shifts at my job to pay a $200 fine. I'm smart enough to play
by the rules and keep my money in my pocket.

It would take me a days work to pay this, I am part of the dieing middle class.
Come on man!
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:18 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
Just wanted to clarify, I disagree entirely with your logic. This surely will be the downfall of your region of the country. Yes, there are those that are fortunate to be born into money, but I think those are in the minority, most of those with money have worked their ass off.
As I with your logic, however I have told you why and yet you fail to do so... Why? Is your logic flawed? Maybe when you write it down and reread it, you no longer believe or understand it...

How is my logic the downfall of my region???

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"Work negatively inpacts my free time !" Me.
"Ride it like you stole it, then do the same to me ! " Her.
"A good thing in a bad place, is still a good thing ! " Us.

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Old 03-19-2013, 11:06 AM   #57
WildAnCrazymtl
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Originally Posted by willys View Post
The solution is very easy.....don't break the law and keep all your hard earned money in your pocket.

Not to offend anyone who needs to break the laws to get somewhere on time or someone who needs to fly through their windshield or allow someone else who is going to break the laws while driving their car irresponcably......we all have the same choice to make......obey the laws, whatever they are....OR...pay the consequence of not doing so. We all get the same fine or punishment or that wouldn't be fair as a whole.

Enlighten me, please!

Which would start another revolution! Are we not all equal? We all could have chosen to learn way back when at school....some of us did better than others and that now is reflected in their earnings. Simple.
I'm not a top wage earner either or ever was......nor did I always obey the laws. But in today's world where the costs of driving or riding are directly related to breaking the laws....it only makes sense to start obeying them.

Bring on photo radar, photo cell pics....photo anything.....it proves it was you in the car at the time with a cell phone in your hand or a book or a can of hair spray, whatever.....driving is an operation that requires us to pay attention to what is going on around us or bad things can happen. We after all are the ones who suffer the most when drivers don't concentrate.....we are motorcyclists....aren't we? We have an almost zero chance of survival against any car or truck when the two meet. So....why the complaining about laws that protect us???
Photo radar... that is a little to "big brother" for may taste... The real problem with photo radar is it is only effective for the kilometer where the device is located. Preceding and following the device you have people reducing speed and accelerating haphazerdly causing a more dangerous situation than without the device. They are revenue generating devices that cause more harm than good. Read the studies... Red light cameras are even more dangerous in the USA though.

By the way I am not complaining againt the law, I am only pointing out that some of the methods of enforcement are ineffevtive, unfair and in some cases downright stupid.

I think we all want safer roads, I just want an effective and fair enforcment not lip service from an ineffective elected official who fails to even look at the big picture.

There is quote from Albert Einstein, I can't remember it exacly, but it goes someting like this " Nothing is more destructive of government and respect for the laws of the land than a government who passes laws that can't be enforced"

or that it cannot enforce ... or that it fails to enforce effectively...

Anyone seeing the similarities ???
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"A good thing in a bad place, is still a good thing ! " Us.

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Old 03-19-2013, 11:18 AM   #58
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This is a very good thread.....the reading is getting typical though......we are starting to argue over simple things and ignoring the big picture. You either agree that these practices are dangerous to our use of the road or you don't. If you don't, imho, you haven't been personally affected by the cause yet. You haven't seen the problem being discussed....ever....lol.
It doesn't matter the way the fines are dished out, they just need to be dished out. Plain and simple. If it's the amount of money that upsets you, then how about piling up the points? That is universal, rich or poor all have the same limits. Sure the rich can easily hire a driver if they have to and the poor ride the public system.
It also may not be a criminal offence yet.....do we really want or need it to become one? Again arguing over technicalities.......wrong is wrong....resulting damages are still the same. We lose. It's a weight problem.....average bike 500lbs against an average car/truck 3000lbs. I could be out by a few either way....same result....

It comes down to you either will obey the laws or you will not.
We on bikes sort of have to....we can't ride with a cell phone or book or whatever in our hands where as the 4 wheeled vehicles are capable. 99.9% of us riders also drive.....so are we the 99.9% going to be part of the solution or part of the problem?

Now, who's getting the first cameras.....??? Who's wanting to be the first to try them out? Don't all set up to the line at once.....lol. OK.....I'll do it. I'm not a scared! Bring it on......
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Old 03-20-2013, 06:31 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by GP640 View Post
Flawed logic.

Penalty for crime is universal. A rich man faces the same penalty as a poor man.

Personally, I think that someone who cries foul over such things has probably
broken the rules too often himself.

It would take me a 2.5 shifts at my job to pay a $200 fine. I'm smart enough to play
by the rules and keep my money in my pocket.
non-flawed logic: you need a new job.
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Old 03-20-2013, 06:34 AM   #60
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At least he has one!!!
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