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Old 01-07-2013, 12:14 AM   #3496
Sierra Thumper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulano View Post
And that is why I take yours and Gunner's sage advice to heart. Thanks, I've learned a lot from you guys as well as others to numerous to mention.
I think we're all learning, all the time, right up until we cross that final ridge into adventure bike heaven.....
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:03 AM   #3497
skibum69
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I just need to work abit on my patience, and realize that the guys here aren't like alot of forums, you guys are actually mature, reasonable folks
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:23 AM   #3498
Mo-Tarded
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FLY: I'm pretty fly... ....for a white guy.

Sierra Thumper: Back to your questions... I'm not an authority on any KTM, but I've had a few. ...and have had a few other bikes as well. Some were DSs - Some were not. There are a lot of used bikes on the market in fantastic shape. I would also suggest you look for a RFS (racing Four Stroke) 450 or 525cc EXC (Enduro/Cross-Country) if you are looking specifically for a KTM. The 525 might give you some more hwy "leg" if you plan on being on-road more.

There are still low-mileage LC4s (Enduros - "LC4-Es") about that also make great all-round Enduro bikes, albeit somewhat heavier.

I assume you are in mid-CA (In the Sierras) ? Getting an otherwise non-legal DS licensed can be problematic depending where you are. ...a much bigger problem than finding a decent bike.

There is alot of EXCs out there in CA. Try different searches on 'zoomthelist.com' in your search area.

As for the delayed responses: We were all probably all out riding ya know ? I just got back.

Give a shout back with questions.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:08 PM   #3499
TaxMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnrobertson View Post
It's not the rollers that wear, but the bearing pins in the roller (that you cannot see).

Don't know myself if the 400 engine has the same wear properties as the 640's (that have had the problem).

But knowing what I know now, the money for a new bearing (or a whole new follower) is a lot less than the cost of the damage that can be caused.

And the bearing can go very quickly (mine went in less than 600 KMS).

In my case, I will be replacing the bearing every 20,000 KMS as preventative maintenenace.

YMMV. My $0.02 worth etc etc...
Thanks for this - I'll need to do this and my water pump in the next couple of years. I've read through the replacement thread and i don't think i really understood what to look for in terms of wear and symptoms of imminent catastrophe. sounds like it isn't as much what you see as it is lateral play due to the worn needles. does that sound right?
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:34 PM   #3500
clintnz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan View Post
Thanks for this - I'll need to do this and my water pump in the next couple of years. I've read through the replacement thread and i don't think i really understood what to look for in terms of wear and symptoms of imminent catastrophe. sounds like it isn't as much what you see as it is lateral play due to the worn needles. does that sound right?
If failure is imminent you will see your valve clearances open up. If you ever think your timing gear sounds a bit rattly, bust out the feeler gauge & check.

My 1st inlet roller was on it's way out at 50K km, 2nd did 45K km & looked fine, 3rd now has 20K km on it. Probably should get another set of rollers in stock in case but I don't plan to do them again until they have done 40K km based on my previous history.

Cheers
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:10 PM   #3501
dnrobertson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clintnz View Post
If failure is imminent you will see your valve clearances open up. If you ever think your timing gear sounds a bit rattly, bust out the feeler gauge & check.

My 1st inlet roller was on it's way out at 50K km, 2nd did 45K km & looked fine, 3rd now has 20K km on it. Probably should get another set of rollers in stock in case but I don't plan to do them again until they have done 40K km based on my previous history.

Cheers
Clint
Without opening up a LARGE can of worms I think the wear is oil or usage dependant?

I bought my 2005 640A from PO at 30,000KM and all he had done was road miles and the roller let go (well it hung together but stuffed the cam and the "elephant feet" on the followers and then the tops of the valves) at 32,000 km. I know the bike was dealer serviced, but no idea of oil used. The bike now does 95% off-road miles at lower speeds and I use top of the range Motorex or Motul. So I wonder how the bearings will last?

I would like to catch the failure next time BEFORE the valve clearances open up.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:36 PM   #3502
gunnerbuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnrobertson View Post
Without opening up a LARGE can of worms I think the wear is oil or usage dependant?

I bought my 2005 640A from PO at 30,000KM and all he had done was road miles and the roller let go (well it hung together but stuffed the cam and the "elephant feet" on the followers and then the tops of the valves) at 32,000 km. I know the bike was dealer serviced, but no idea of oil used. The bike now does 95% off-road miles at lower speeds and I use top of the range Motorex or Motul. So I wonder how the bearings will last?

I would like to catch the failure next time BEFORE the valve clearances open up.
I usually change out my intake follower roller along with rebuilding the waterpump as part of the 40,000 KM service... At this point I usually find that the water pump shaft is grooved from the seal rub but is still working well at holding the coolant out of the engine... Also I each time I have found the follower roller bearing to still be in good shape with minimal slop in the needles...

The last time I did my follower at 40,000 I found the unit was still like new so I swapped the whole arm and saved that unit for a spare... Fast forward about 20,000 KM and I could here a lot of extra noise coming from the tappet area so I opened it up.... What I found was a lot of slop in the roller needles so I changed the whole arm back to the previous roller unit that had 40,000 km on it... That roller unit now has 45,000 km on it and is still running along quietly... It's hard to explain why one will fail at 20,000 and the other will still be good at twice that distance...
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:33 PM   #3503
skibum69
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Location: New Melbourne, Newfoundland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clintnz View Post
If failure is imminent you will see your valve clearances open up. If you ever think your timing gear sounds a bit rattly, bust out the feeler gauge & check.

My 1st inlet roller was on it's way out at 50K km, 2nd did 45K km & looked fine, 3rd now has 20K km on it. Probably should get another set of rollers in stock in case but I don't plan to do them again until they have done 40K km based on my previous history.

Cheers
Clint
I wish I'd known that, I saw the gap when I last looked but didn't realize what I was looking at-the parts bill alone was $1000
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:43 PM   #3504
dnrobertson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skibum69 View Post
I wish I'd known that, I saw the gap when I last looked but didn't realize what I was looking at-the parts bill alone was $1000
Sorry to hear that skibum.

I had the same problem and cost.

Then 800 kms after the rebuild, my exhaust follower snapped and caused even more damage. So $2500 in 800 kms. I'm glad the wife has never found out how much the damage cost
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:53 PM   #3505
skibum69
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ouch! We replaced both sides on my rebuild, I haven't been by the shop yet so I have no idea if it's back together yet. No-one but me to worry about why my credit card payments are late
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skibum69 screwed with this post 01-07-2013 at 06:14 PM
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Old 01-08-2013, 04:01 AM   #3506
warewolf
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Location: Nelson, New Zealand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnrobertson View Post
Without opening up a LARGE can of worms I think the wear is oil or usage dependant?

I bought my 2005 640A from PO at 30,000KM and all he had done was road miles and the roller let go (well it hung together but stuffed the cam and the "elephant feet" on the followers and then the tops of the valves) at 32,000 km.
My '05 was dealer serviced the first 2-3 times and it had the recommended Motorex PowerSynt 4T oil. The bearings were on the way out before 14,000km and replaced at 16,000km, by which point the valve clearances on the inlets were pretty big - and they were reset from big at the 15,000km service.

The bike has had much, much harder use since then, with a fair bit of serious off-road riding and racing, and it's done 36,000km on the second set of bearings with no signs of bearing wear. At some stage I changed to Mobil 1 m/c oil to reduce garage inventory, FWIW.
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:38 AM   #3507
mgorman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warewolf View Post
At some stage I changed to Mobil 1 m/c oil to reduce garage inventory, FWIW.

I quit putting synthetic in mine some time ago. I check my rollers a few weeks back at 22k miles and they still looked good. I can see where as mentioned earlier, the amount of oil that gets up there could be a contributing factor. I'm not sure how much oil gets carried up the cam chain but of the bottom end gets low, I can see the top starving of the chain is responsible for some splash and cant dip into the oil stored in the bottom end. I have an idea on that situation and the next time I have my tank off, I will look into an alternate oiling method to keep them slippery.
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:52 AM   #3508
Boon Booni
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Originally Posted by mgorman View Post
I quit putting synthetic in mine some time ago. I check my rollers a few weeks back at 22k miles and they still looked good. I can see where as mentioned earlier, the amount of oil that gets up there could be a contributing factor. I'm not sure how much oil gets carried up the cam chain but of the bottom end gets low, I can see the top starving of the chain is responsible for some splash and cant dip into the oil stored in the bottom end. I have an idea on that situation and the next time I have my tank off, I will look into an alternate oiling method to keep them slippery.
I believe there was a fellow who ran an oil line to the valve cover to flow oil directly onto the rollers. I remember the thread on ADV, but can't seem to put my finger on it right now.
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:59 AM   #3509
mgorman
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That was pretty much my idea. I was looking around for where I could tap into a pressurized line without sacrificing somewhere else. The return line to the tank would drop pressure to force past the filter and the return line back to the motor would have to climb 18 or more inches. My 950 has jets that spray straight onto the cam lobes.

The other thought was a deflector plate on top of the valve cover to splash oil across so it doesn't just splash back down.
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Old 01-08-2013, 08:43 AM   #3510
gunnerbuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boon Booni View Post
I believe there was a fellow who ran an oil line to the valve cover to flow oil directly onto the rollers. I remember the thread on ADV, but can't seem to put my finger on it right now.

As long as your engine oil level is kept in the safe zone the rocker rollers get plenty of lube... There is a lobe pool under the cam shaft that the cam dips into on each revolution and splats a constant deposit of oil onto the rollers... I would assume that vapor spray within the engine plus oil pulled up from the bottom by the cam chain is what keeps the lobe pool full... I check the lobe pool when I take the valve cover off and to date it always has had oil in it which means the rollers were getting a good supply of lube...

When a roller does fail, it is usually always the one on the intake side... If you look at the exhaust roller you will see that it is approx 25% wider than the intake with longer needles providing a larger load bearing surface on the axle pins... This larger bearing surface on the E- roller will likely equate to twice the lifespan over the smaller intake unit...

Laramie experimented with adding an oil jet to the top of the rocker cover to spray the rollers but I don't believe he ever got his engine back together to try it... When you add this rocker cover oil jet you'll be robbing some stream from the supply that feeds the piston jet so I wasn't overly convinced that this was a good idea...
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