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Old 03-01-2013, 08:12 PM   #3661
Boon Booni
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Originally Posted by DesignerRider View Post
Thanks for the reply. It has roughly 25k on the engine, but what I do know is that about two years ago the engine was torn down to replace a main bearing that was going bad. Sort of a fluke failure, but that's another story. The work was done by a very good KTM shop in SoCal.

Do you think it's possible that key has been loose in there for two years of riding? You're right, I don't see how it could come out after being installed.
It either popped out during reassembly and has been out of place for 2 years, or they dropped one into the bottom end and couldn't find it so they installed another one.

Usually a woodruff key is used to index a tapered shaft like the flywheel. Once the flywheel is tightened down onto the tapered shaft, there's no way it can spin without it breaking loose from the shaft and if it breaks loose from the shaft there's no way 1 woodruff key is going to keep it from spinning.

Tough call, but two years and however many miles ago seems like a long time.
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:24 PM   #3662
bmwktmbill
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Originally Posted by Boon Booni View Post
Yeah..

Talked with Neil at Hitchcock Industries last night. He actually re-valved my forks 2 years ago for the PO, also installed OEM KTM seals at that time. Neil doesn't think changing the seals out would make that big of difference. He thinks if my axle is strait, the bottom triples aren't too tight, the forks are parallel in both x & y planes and that I'm positive the axle clamp on the right fork is aligning correctly that it's more than likely the bushings. When he rebuilt the forks 2 years ago he didn't replace the bushings, and several thousand miles and lots of offroad could easily have done the bushings in. He gave me some specs to check for tolerance. I'll pull the forks in the next few weeks and check the bushings, probably install new ones no matter what and see what happens.

I'll try to remember to take some photos for a refresher on the shade tree mechanic fork re-build.
It's easy to tell if the bushings are ok, the Teflon coating will still be there and if so the bushings are good to go. I don't think they wear out very quickly.

I would get them off, uncap them, dump the oil out the top, remove the springs and work them to see what's going on.


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Old 03-01-2013, 08:26 PM   #3663
DesignerRider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boon Booni View Post
It either popped out during reassembly and has been out of place for 2 years, or they dropped one into the bottom end and couldn't find it so they installed another one.

Usually a woodruff key is used to index a tapered shaft like the flywheel. Once the flywheel is tightened down onto the tapered shaft, there's no way it can spin without it breaking loose from the shaft and if it breaks loose from the shaft there's no way 1 woodruff key is going to keep it from spinning.

Tough call, but two years and however many miles ago seems like a long time.
Yeah, I've logged thousands of miles since then without knowing that key was loose. I might just keep riding and try not to worry about it. I'll probably try to call the shop to see if they remember working on this bike, and maybe send that woodruff key to them in the mail to jog their memory!
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:48 PM   #3664
slackmeyer
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I'd have to take that motor apart, no way I could live with a woodruff key maybe not where it needs to be. . . . and there's a lot of mechanical deficiencies that I could live with just fine, so that's saying something.

Boon Booni- This just keeps sounding like some sort of alignment problem to me Worn bushings should make the for sloppy, not binding up. If you take the fork's out of the clamps and set them on the ground, you should be able to cycle them pretty far into the stroke with your weight, without even taking them apart at all. Check that you can do that, and that they both feel about the same.

I don't know about the forks/wheel that you have, but on my 950 (with 48mm forks) there's a small, easy to lose spacer on the right side that sits flush with the seal. You almost don't notice it's there, except that things will go bad if you don't have it in place. Another thing that happens on the 950, and thus probably on the 640, if the dumb end (not the threaded end) of the axle gets dinged or roughed up, it won't pull completely into the fork lower like it should. The pinch bolts will hold everything tight, but the fork leg alignment will be off.
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Old 03-02-2013, 03:25 PM   #3665
Gerst
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Rocker arm axial play question

I'm not sure if I've got this right. I replaced the cam follower bearing and rebuilt the water pump. I'm trying to put her back together and I'm not confident.... With the rocker cover off, the rocker arms installed and bolts dropped through the rocker arm retaining holes. I used a finger to push the rocker arm to one side and slid a feeler gauge between the shims and the rocker arm. My gap is way more than .3 mm. On the exhaust side a .303 will fit and on the intake side .606 (my largest gauge) will fit and is loose!!! I went to my local dealer and they checked it and said it's good, in spec. Am I doing this incorrectly? I double checked all the spacers are accounted for and installed as they came out.

Thanks for the help, no way I'm sealing her up without some reassurance



edit: If I measure as mentioned above but put slight pressure on the rocker arms from the outside (right side) toward the water pump side the gap is in spec. Is this the correct way to measure?

Gerst screwed with this post 03-02-2013 at 03:50 PM
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Old 03-02-2013, 04:59 PM   #3666
gunnerbuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerst View Post
I'm not sure if I've got this right. I replaced the cam follower bearing and rebuilt the water pump. I'm trying to put her back together and I'm not confident.... With the rocker cover off, the rocker arms installed and bolts dropped through the rocker arm retaining holes. I used a finger to push the rocker arm to one side and slid a feeler gauge between the shims and the rocker arm. My gap is way more than .3 mm. On the exhaust side a .303 will fit and on the intake side .606 (my largest gauge) will fit and is loose!!! I went to my local dealer and they checked it and said it's good, in spec. Am I doing this incorrectly? I double checked all the spacers are accounted for and installed as they came out.

Thanks for the help, no way I'm sealing her up without some reassurance





edit: If I measure as mentioned above but put slight pressure on the rocker arms from the outside (right side) toward the water pump side the gap is in spec. Is this the correct way to measure?
You can open and close the gap in the shimmed clearance by sliding the rocker shafts back and forth even with the bolts in place.... What I have done is to install the shims that bring the clearance to ballpark, then use the play in the shaft with the bolts in place to get it spot on... Once the clearance is correct I'll carefully install the cover without bumping the shafts out of their setting... I like to get it so the cover bolt holes and the rocker shaft holes are pretty close to being evenly aligned when you look down them before the bolts are in place, but this is not always possible...

Once the bolts are in place and torqued down they lock the shafts from moving... Just make sure you don't mix the 2 cover bolts up as if you install the longer bolt in the short hole it will bottom out before properly torquing the cover and the shafts... The longer one goes in the hole towards the front (exhaust} side of the engine...
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Old 03-03-2013, 10:31 AM   #3667
Gerst
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunnerbuck View Post
You can open and close the gap in the shimmed clearance by sliding the rocker shafts back and forth even with the bolts in place.... What I have done is to install the shims that bring the clearance to ballpark, then use the play in the shaft with the bolts in place to get it spot on... Once the clearance is correct I'll carefully install the cover without bumping the shafts out of their setting... I like to get it so the cover bolt holes and the rocker shaft holes are pretty close to being evenly aligned when you look down them before the bolts are in place, but this is not always possible...

Once the bolts are in place and torqued down they lock the shafts from moving... Just make sure you don't mix the 2 cover bolts up as if you install the longer bolt in the short hole it will bottom out before properly torquing the cover and the shafts... The longer one goes in the hole towards the front (exhaust} side of the engine...

Thanks for the tip Gunner, I'm feeling better about it now. hopefully I'll have her buttoned up tonight, riding season is getting close
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:58 AM   #3668
clintnz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunnerbuck View Post
You can open and close the gap in the shimmed clearance by sliding the rocker shafts back and forth even with the bolts in place.... What I have done is to install the shims that bring the clearance to ballpark, then use the play in the shaft with the bolts in place to get it spot on... Once the clearance is correct I'll carefully install the cover without bumping the shafts out of their setting...
Yep.

When I last put mine in I got the clearance set up then measured the outside shaft end - cam cover distance with my vernier so I could check it again once installed.

Cheers
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:21 PM   #3669
TacocaT
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I was checking the valves on my LC4 400 the other day, my 4 year old nephew was "helping" me. He decided the best way to help would be to drop a small piece of a stick down the spark plug hole.

So now I have to pull the head off which i have never done before. I have the service manual but it deals with an engine out of the bike. I think I have a pretty good idea but what is the minimum amount of stuff I can take off and still get the stick out?
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:25 PM   #3670
Boon Booni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacocaT View Post
I was checking the valves on my LC4 400 the other day, my 4 year old nephew was "helping" me. He decided the best way to help would be to drop a small piece of a stick down the spark plug hole.

So now I have to pull the head off which i have never done before. I have the service manual but it deals with an engine out of the bike. I think I have a pretty good idea but what is the minimum amount of stuff I can take off and still get the stick out?
Have you tried one of these?



Should fit down the spark plug hole and be able to grab a small stick.
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:26 PM   #3671
gunnerbuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacocaT View Post
I was checking the valves on my LC4 400 the other day, my 4 year old nephew was "helping" me. He decided the best way to help would be to drop a small piece of a stick down the spark plug hole.

So now I have to pull the head off which i have never done before. I have the service manual but it deals with an engine out of the bike. I think I have a pretty good idea but what is the minimum amount of stuff I can take off and still get the stick out?
You'll need to remove: carb, exhaust, fan, upper cooling pipes {thermostat} and a few other odds and ends... The rads can be left in place...
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:31 PM   #3672
ErikY.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacocaT View Post
I was checking the valves on my LC4 400 the other day, my 4 year old nephew was "helping" me. He decided the best way to help would be to drop a small piece of a stick down the spark plug hole.

So now I have to pull the head off which i have never done before. I have the service manual but it deals with an engine out of the bike. I think I have a pretty good idea but what is the minimum amount of stuff I can take off and still get the stick out?
Get a small gauge plastic tube duct-taped to the end of your vacuum cleaner hose.
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Old 03-04-2013, 09:17 AM   #3673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacocaT View Post
I was checking the valves on my LC4 400 the other day, my 4 year old nephew was "helping" me. He decided the best way to help would be to drop a small piece of a stick down the spark plug hole.

So now I have to pull the head off which i have never done before. I have the service manual but it deals with an engine out of the bike. I think I have a pretty good idea but what is the minimum amount of stuff I can take off and still get the stick out?
If you can't get it out another way, I would suggest leaving the head bolted to the cylinder and replacing the base gasket instead of the head gasket. It will save you about $50. It will take more time and effort though so if your time is worth more than $$$ I would just replace the head gasket.

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Old 03-04-2013, 09:22 PM   #3674
bmwktmbill
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Double stick tape on a McDonald's straw?

Fish around.
b
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:32 PM   #3675
mgorman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacocaT View Post
I was checking the valves on my LC4 400 the other day, my 4 year old nephew was "helping" me. He decided the best way to help would be to drop a small piece of a stick down the spark plug hole.

So now I have to pull the head off which i have never done before. I have the service manual but it deals with an engine out of the bike. I think I have a pretty good idea but what is the minimum amount of stuff I can take off and still get the stick out?

I had something similar happen. Pending size, why can't you lean the bike over and try to work the thing out the hole? I flipped a TL125 upside down once to get a part out that slide down the intake.
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