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Old 03-15-2013, 08:09 AM   #31
geometrician
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowhawk jockey View Post
That oil slime in the overflow bottle is a sure sign for head gaskets
The presence of oil in the catch tank doesn't indicate the source of his leak- it could be water pump seal as well as porous head casting (LC8's have this problem too) or the head gasket(s)

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The new washers & nuts are a means to provide the correct torque upon installation. In some assembly manuals you'll see bolts/nuts where the threads are oiled; this is another means of getting the readings the engineers are looking for.

---

YMMV but (to me) it's a lot easier to pull a circlip & push the wrist pins out than deal with the rings (and I've done literally thousands of top ends). As long as you protect the open engine case from swallowing a dropped wrist pin clip it's simple, and you don't disturb the sealing of your cylinder/rings or risk damage. I've seen many rings ruined (broken, bent, twisted) during installation as well as lands (grooves where the rings reside) damaged- still waiting for the 1st wrist pin clip to create a problem. $7 for a clip vs. for $75 for a ring set is another reason (I know you can buy each ring individually)

You only need two of them for the job as you'll leave one side in the pistons. Once the wrist pin is pushed out enough to clear the small end of the connecting rod I leave the pistons/wrist pins right where they are in the bores, that way when you reassemble it lines right up- just store them bottom-side up.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:44 AM   #32
snowhawk jockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geometrician View Post
The presence of oil in the catch tank doesn't indicate the source of his leak- it could be water pump seal as well as porous head casting (LC8's have this problem too) or the head gasket(s).
Good catch on the WP seal indicator. I shot the mouth a little fast with that one!
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:16 AM   #33
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I did my water pump less than 4000 miles ago. Oil looks fine. Have not been losing coolent mysteriously. Only by the system over pressurizing and puking on my leg.

Also the water bottle I mounted to my overflow tube with the tube submerged in water I saw major bubbles shooting out at idle and it increased with rpms.
As far as I know there is no other way for the cooling system to pressurize to that extent, other than head gaskets. Right?

I am not the original owner to the bike so I am unclear of its history for the first 15,000 mi. I am closing in on 30,000. Bought the bike with cracked cases and did a lowend swap last winter. I did not split the heads form the cylinders then. All seemed fine. Ain't broke don't fix it! Kinda wish I had tho!

And I pulled the motor last night. Will start diving in in the next few days....

Will keep you guys posted.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:35 AM   #34
RedRupert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geometrician View Post

---

The new washers & nuts are a means to provide the correct torque upon installation. In some assembly manuals you'll see bolts/nuts where the threads are oiled; this is another means of getting the readings the engineers are looking for.

---

YMMV but (to me) it's a lot easier to pull a circlip & push the wrist pins out than deal with the rings (and I've done literally thousands of top ends). As long as you protect the open engine case from swallowing a dropped wrist pin clip it's simple, and you don't disturb the sealing of your cylinder/rings or risk damage. I've seen many rings ruined (broken, bent, twisted) during installation as well as lands (grooves where the rings reside) damaged- still waiting for the 1st wrist pin clip to create a problem. $7 for a clip vs. for $75 for a ring set is another reason (I know you can buy each ring individually)

You only need two of them for the job as you'll leave one side in the pistons. Once the wrist pin is pushed out enough to clear the small end of the connecting rod I leave the pistons/wrist pins right where they are in the bores, that way when you reassemble it lines right up- just store them bottom-side up.

KTM do stipulate that the head nuts should be lubricated.
Are you saying that used head nuts and washers can give the wrong loading even if torqued correctly? I have read that once the zinc plating has been worn, the torque should be adjusted so as to allow for it.

I understand why it is beneficial to leave the pistons in the cylinder and remove the gudgeon pin. But I wanted to know why KTM say: "Do not pull the piston out of the cylinder up to the oil ring since the piston ring will be damaged by the lower edge of the cylinder"

Is it just inaccurate translation? ie damage will be caused if the ring(s) are not re-installed correctly once they exit the cylinder. If you see what I mean.
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RedRupert screwed with this post 03-15-2013 at 11:35 AM
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:42 AM   #35
geometrician
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRupert View Post
But I wanted to know why KTM say: "Do not pull the piston out of the cylinder up to the oil ring since the piston ring will be damaged by the lower edge of the cylinder"

Is just inaccurate translation? ie damage will be caused if the ring(s) are not re-installed correctly once they exit the cylinder. If you see what I mean.
You're on to something- they're trying to save the Tech time & prevent damage to the rings & the piston itself, as it can cock ever-so-slightly in the bore, (sometimes) to the point where it gets stuck while you are installing it. This happens at the top part of the piston where the lands (grooves in the piston where the rings reside) don't have a lot of metal to support such stresses (the angular pressure/weight of top end). I've seen pistons where the lands have been bent, which traps the ring(s) & prevents their normal rotation. Sometimes you can put a wave in a ring. Then you're really screwed- plus the customer has to wait for parts to arrive which the dealership will be paying for.

How would one clean the piston & rings? Remove them and clean the lands with a broken & polished ring edge (this is the preferred method)? Any time you remove rings unless you have a nice ring-expansion tool you put stresses on them. Which is to say if it's not going to be done right, better to leave them in place.

From a true tech standpoint, in the all-important break-in period of reciprocating engines the rings & cylinder walls mate, and at a microscopic level. By disturbing the surface of the rings you can face wear & oil consumption issues as the rings are re-anealed, which they sometime won't. Again, the dealership has an unhappy customer & (perhaps) might be financially responsible.

That's my theory & I'm sticking to it!
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:29 PM   #36
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i'm sticking to my theory, if he takes apart the engine check cyl and head to make sure they are perfectly flat.

Because, many people just open and threw a new head gasket and think it will end there, to later find that the head is not perfectly flat.
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:15 AM   #37
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Update.
Took the heads and cylinders to the machine shop. They resurfaced the the mating parts. One set had a low spot, i could see some shadowing on the surface as well. Motor is back in and running!!
I find this bike a joy to wrench on. But shit installing carbs sure can be pesky sometimes.

Thanks for all the input guys and gals!
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