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View Results: How did your failure happen?
No notice at all ,left me stranded on the spot. 66 22.53%
Noticed a problem ,but was able to ride back to civilazation 106 36.18%
Just checked and felt fine ,but died a few hundred miles later 17 5.80%
Noticed problem,rode bike hundreds of miles without total failure 104 35.49%
Voters: 293. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-27-2005, 02:12 PM   #76
Steptoe
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Laugh

1200 rear drive is sealed for life - whats the problem with that -


the life of the unit lasts up to when it fails !!!!!!!!
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Old 07-27-2005, 02:46 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steptoe
1200 rear drive is sealed for life - whats the problem with that -


the life of the unit lasts up to when it fails !!!!!!!!
BMW has built a long standing reputation for failed bearings in the rear drive. Isin't a little silly to make matters worse by never changing $3.00 worth of gear lube?
Thier are problems creeping up with the new drives
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80788
I for one , will not be the least bit suprised if the new drives fail in exactly the same way as the old ones with the bonus of some new problems that didn't exist before.
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Old 07-27-2005, 05:42 PM   #78
Caribou Aqua Buddha
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I do not own a GS, but I feel your pain. I checked in my bearing books to confirm my hunch. The 61917 is a std (light) duty single row Conrad style ball bearing. In a perfect world the side loads would be accomodated by the tapered roller bearing on the other side. But the world is not perfect, and without perfect spacing, a side load can still devolope on that ball bearing. Ball bearings are not meant to take much if any axial load. I believe this problem is exagerated by the single sided swing arm.
On to the fix, as I learned in my bearing class at college last winter, repeated failure without contamination, installation damage, or electrical current passing through the bearing, to name a few, spells engineering problem, meaning bearing needs to be bigger, Max Capacity as it is called in the bearing world. The problem is, there is no Max Capacity replacement for this 85X120X18 mm bearing, I confirmed this with my instructor today. So in short the bearing dimensions change (larger) with a max capacity or other bearing type, so for a permanent fix the associated housing bores also need changed. I talked to some bearing guru's today and they arrived at the same conclusion,... more than a few random failures, assuming proper initial assembly,cleanliness etc, is an engineeing problem. The randomness of these failures actually supports that theory in my mind.
Anyway there is no better replacement than the stock FAG brand, especially considering that bearing was $200 at our local store. My instructor said the factory FAG or SKF would be about the same quality. And don't buy made in china bearing.
Also looking at my load rating specs in my engineering book, they could have went from 6,740 lbf to 22,020 lbf by choosing a max capacity bearing, the outer bore would have to be 30mm larger. In hindsight maybe a good trade off. Although I am not convinced a Conrad style ball bearing is even appropriate to begin with. Japanese bikes use a similiar inner ball bearing, but usually with a traditional double sided swing arm.
BMW needs a complete kit with the associated parts and different bearings, and maybe they are working on it. I doubt it will be free if they do.
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Old 07-27-2005, 05:53 PM   #79
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Good post, Bent.

A bearing class, huh? I missed that one..
I would have assumed that was a monster bearing. Surprised to hear it is standard duty. I was always baffled by the whole single-sided swing arm deal. I assumed all models had the flow through ventilation, as on the 12, and that this was why the swing arm had to be single-sided. Now I know this is not the case.
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Old 07-27-2005, 06:03 PM   #80
Caribou Aqua Buddha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drdata
Good post, Bent.

A bearing class, huh? I missed that one..
I would have assumed that was a monster bearing. Surprised to hear it is standard duty. I was always baffled by the whole single-sided swing arm deal. I assumed all models had the flow through ventilation, as on the 12, and that this was why the swing arm had to be single-sided. Now I know this is not the case.
We have a lot of mills here, and our local bearing supplier services them and helps diagnose bearing failures. One of the employees teaches this class at our community college, and I jumped at the chance, very interesting.
One semester, all about bearings.
My Airhead has two tapered roller bearings on the rear axle, PLUS the main bearings supporting the final drive bevel gears. I do not remember hearing of one ever failing.
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Old 07-28-2005, 07:58 AM   #81
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OK, dumb question, but I'll ask. "Do the 11x and 1200 GS' use the same FD bearing"?


I'd like to think that perhaps bearing is beefier on the 12.
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Old 07-28-2005, 08:27 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drdata
OK, dumb question, but I'll ask. "Do the 11x and 1200 GS' use the same FD bearing"?


I'd like to think that perhaps bearing is beefier on the 12.
I'm pretty sure they are different. According the to the press releases from BMW durring the rollout the final drive had been "completely redesigned for improved cooling and reliability". I changed my R12GS final drive oil at 12000 miles and it looked perfectly clean like it had never even been used. I ran the oil through a strainer and came up with nothing. Not even the normal shavings from mold release that one would expect. I don't plan to do it again until about 50,000 miles. I can't see any reason to have any concerns about the R12GS final drive. There are basically not reports of any problems (besides that o-ring deal on the 500 pre-production bikes). BMW would have be complete engineering fools to do a complete redesign and still have the same problems that they had with the previous design. If I thought that, I would not have bought a BMW.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchizzMan View Post
We pay Motorrad to design weight off the bike then pay TouraTech to bolt it right back on.
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Old 07-28-2005, 11:11 AM   #83
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Anyone know if a 1200 GS has had a final drive failure? If they are not having problems, I would like to know the Industrial bearing number, to look it up and see the specs.
I guess sealed up rear ends are the way of the future, cars have been doing it for years, at least some of them. Many people never change it on a car. Even my Jeep you have to remove the cover to dump the fluid.
Of course the fluid should nearly go the life a drive. Generally fluid will stay clean untill a bearing failure. Seeing these low mileage bikes doing this, tells me it is certainly not a lubrication issue.
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Old 07-28-2005, 11:29 AM   #84
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Since we now have a bearing expert on board...

I have a question, and I know nothing about bearing, most everything else of course, but not bearings.... :)

My questions is; does the need to tighten the rear pivot bearings ( which I suspect that many bikes do not have done until it's been running loose for a while) have a negative effect on the rear drive bearings?

In other words, if the rear pivot is run loose for a sustained time, will it screw up the final drive bearings??
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Old 07-28-2005, 02:34 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentspoke
Anyone know if a 1200 GS has had a final drive failure? If they are not having problems, I would like to know the Industrial bearing number, to look it up and see the specs.
I guess sealed up rear ends are the way of the future, cars have been doing it for years, at least some of them. Many people never change it on a car. Even my Jeep you have to remove the cover to dump the fluid.
Of course the fluid should nearly go the life a drive. Generally fluid will stay clean untill a bearing failure. Seeing these low mileage bikes doing this, tells me it is certainly not a lubrication issue.
I would think cars would be imune to a failure similar to BMW due to using proper type bearings for the aplication and therfore may be more tolerant to shorcomings in lubrication.
I have heard a few mention cryogenic treament to make the bearing more durable, any thoughts?
As far as the new final drive, BMW only list a complete assembled final drive unit for replacment , so I could not confirm if the bearing is different between models.
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Old 07-28-2005, 04:52 PM   #86
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Lets hope you are right, RC...

It started to seem like these FDs were made of glass. To the extent I fear a wheelie now and then. Pretty sure there have been r12 FD failures, but who knows, could be some assembly/contamination issues, or there might be aDr-FD out there drumming up a fever. Here are some links:

http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthr...+drive+failure


http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthr...00+final+drive

A "dutchman incident", whom most hold in high regard:

http://www.bmwridersscotland.com/bul...=wheel+bearing
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Old 07-28-2005, 10:30 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bud
I have a question, and I know nothing about bearing, most everything else of course, but not bearings.... :)

My questions is; does the need to tighten the rear pivot bearings ( which I suspect that many bikes do not have done until it's been running loose for a while) have a negative effect on the rear drive bearings?

In other words, if the rear pivot is run loose for a sustained time, will it screw up the final drive bearings??
I am no GS expert, but if that rear pivot is what you are refering to, that would not have anything to do with the pinion in the final drive. That adjustable pivot pin allows the driveshaft housing, and final drive housing to articulate, and yet have the pivot bearing clearance taken up, (similiar to a swing arm pivot)
The pinion (small bevel gear) probably has a nut pulling it tight in the housing, the large bevel gear is held in place by both bearing outer races being sandwiched between the final drive housing halves.
As for gear contact pattern shimming, they must be shimming on the pinion end, because looking at the pic's posted above, there does not appear to be any adjustment lateraly on the large gear.
Todays modern engineering/machining can allow for parts to all fit nearly the same, as opposed to yester year where each assy was an individule and required individual shimming. Or the lack of adjustable shimming may actually be the problem.
But I still do not see how that design keeps axial load off that left side bearing, especially with wear.
They make ball bearings that can take axial load, and radial load (angular contact bearing is one example), but I have never seen one in a final drive.
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Old 07-29-2005, 01:31 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentspoke
IAs for gear contact pattern shimming, they must be shimming on the pinion end, because looking at the pic's posted above, there does not appear to be any adjustment lateraly on the large gear.
Todays modern engineering/machining can allow for parts to all fit nearly the same, as opposed to yester year where each assy was an individule and required individual shimming. Or the lack of adjustable shimming may actually be the problem.
.

It is shimmed -
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Old 07-29-2005, 07:25 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drdata
Lets hope you are right, RC...

It started to seem like these FDs were made of glass. To the extent I fear a wheelie now and then. Pretty sure there have been r12 FD failures, but who knows, could be some assembly/contamination issues, or there might be aDr-FD out there drumming up a fever. Here are some links:

http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthr...+drive+failure


http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthr...00+final+drive

A "dutchman incident", whom most hold in high regard:

http://www.bmwridersscotland.com/bul...=wheel+bearing
If you read those posts and look at the dates you will see they were all 2004 pre production bikes. The failures were caused by a faulty O-ring that was used in the first bikes off the assembly lines for the European market. It was later recalled and repaired. I'm not saying that the new drive is failure free there is no such thing. I'm confident that the failure rate will be drastically reduced with the new design. The proof is already there. All shaft bikes have had failures, I know a guy who is on his 3rd shaft on a FJR. I have heard of many Gold Wing failures. It’s just the nature of the beast. There is no such thing as a perfect motorcycle shaft drive.

I'm sure I guy like Alex will jump on the FD failure band wagon as soon as he realizes that the servo brakes failures that he is hoping on the for are just not happening in any statistically significant numbers and that 99.9% of us love the brakes.
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Originally Posted by SchizzMan View Post
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Old 07-29-2005, 07:32 AM   #90
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Hopefully this is right and the problem is corrected......how long has BMW made shaft drive bikes,,getting close to 100 years isn't it?
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