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Old 06-15-2013, 12:23 PM   #151
joexr
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I don't know whether or not thinning of the low smoke additives is necessary , but I've seen someone accidentally put kerosene in a lawnmower and believe me kerosene SMOKES!
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Old 06-15-2013, 01:35 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by The Griz View Post
So even though Castrol says Power RS TTS 2T is FULLY SYNTHETIC it actually isn't? Doubt it. BP/Castrol would have been in trouble long ago for false advertising! The fact is that ALL of the oils I've listed in this thread including Castrol Power RS TTS 2T are fully synthetic. Until actually evidence is presented that shows clearly that these oils contain freakin' kerosene your statement that they do should not be held as fact. I've presented information that states these oils are fully synthetic. I've done my part.



Again, conjecture and your opinion. What they are doing in order to make an oil 'low smoke' may be something other than kerosene. Again, I personally have never heard of kerosene being in any oil. We need proof of that here. And to state that 20% of the oil would be kerosene is absurd! 20% of the oil is kero?! Not a chance.



Again with your auto lube thing. We're talking mix engines here.



We all respect your opinion and choice of mix ratio and oil. That is that. Cheers. To each his own.

I'm not disagreeing that oil manufacturers use thinning agents to offset other additives that may thicken their oils. However, claiming that the FULLY synthetic oils I've listed including Castrol Power RS TTS 2T and Amsoil Dominator contain 20% kerosene is not only strange, but at this point complete conjecture on you part. I urge you to present evidence to back this, and/or take a fresh sample of one of these oils and get a chemical analysis done on it, then post the results.

If someone else in this thread agrees that the fully synthetic 2T oils I've listed contain kerosene, please chime in.

I certainly don't smell kerosene with these oils! And I bet ya $20 if you took a match to a small amount of one of the oils I listed, it wouldn't light up. If it contained 20% kero it would!

Also, a vast Google search yields no info stating that 2T oils contain kerosene.

The reason I spent an awful long time looking into 2T lubrication was in part as a result of chat room posts very much like the one above! I exchanged many emails and talked on the phone several times to a Silkolene/Fuchs technical rep, over a period of around 6 months, and with his help, think I now have a pretty good understanding of most 2T lubrication issues.

But I dont really have the time to take part in endless and futile debate, with posters whose only grasp of the subject being discussed seems to be related to often ridiculous manufacturers advertising blurb, so this will be my final post on this thread.

Finally like it or not all 2T oils specified for autolube use, that are Jaso, API, or ISO rated, contain polybutene low smoke additives, which are thinned with 20% kerosene to work in autolube systems. Obviously none of these is fully synthetic, so I would strongly suggest that anyone running a serious pre-mix 2T competition bike, should change from autolube oil, and start using a proper pre-mix only, fully synthetic product at a mix ratio appropriate to their application.
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Old 06-15-2013, 07:35 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by The Griz View Post
KTM, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Gas Gas, Husqvarna, etc etc.... All not autolube engines.
Just to be contrary, KTM has an oil-injected 200 that they sell outside of North America.
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Old 06-16-2013, 03:10 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
, and start using a proper pre-mix only, fully synthetic product at a mix ratio appropriate to their application.
oh my god. still at it and you've NEVER mentioned a brand that might work. or even a ratio. you continually mention autolube, no one here is talking about autolube except YOU. you've never heard of motul, motorex, or amsoil? and you claim to "know" pre-mix what planet are you from? what product are you using?

you seem incredibly stubborn, and unwilling to accept that you are probably wrong. you won't even consider it.
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Old 06-16-2013, 06:09 PM   #155
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oh my god. still at it and you've NEVER mentioned a brand that might work. or even a ratio. you continually mention autolube, no one here is talking about autolube except YOU. you've never heard of motul, motorex, or amsoil? and you claim to "know" pre-mix what planet are you from? what product are you using?

you seem incredibly stubborn, and unwilling to accept that you are probably wrong. you won't even consider it.

+100

Kerosene in 2T oil?

I present documents stating that the oils in question are FULLY SYNTHETIC, he makes claims that they're not without evidence. Until he presents evidence for his claims the forum needs to know he is simply stating his opinion. In fact, for a manufacturer to to state that their oil is fully synthetic is has to be just that, FULLY SYNTHETIC. No kerosene, no conspiracy theories from Twin-shocker. He apparently hasn't heard of the term false advertising.

I suppose he will reply to our posts with something regarding autolube.

I just got home from riding an enduro with my "non-autolube" KTM 300 XCW running FULLY SYNTHETIC LOW SMOKE Motorex Cross Power 2T.
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Old 06-16-2013, 11:22 PM   #156
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oh my god. still at it and you've NEVER mentioned a brand that might work. or even a ratio. you continually mention autolube, no one here is talking about autolube except YOU. you've never heard of motul, motorex, or amsoil? and you claim to "know" pre-mix what planet are you from? what product are you using?

you seem incredibly stubborn, and unwilling to accept that you are probably wrong. you won't even consider it.

I think these points deserve to be clarified so I will respond, as I wouldnt want the chat room gurus to introduce any more confusion and mythinformation into this thread than they have up to now.

I am in the UK and 2 very good FULLY SYNTHETIC PRE-MIX ONLY 2T oils I have mentioned in earlier threads are Castrol XR77 and Motul M800.

As outlined in several earlier responses mix ratios are directly related to heat being generated by a motor, but as bike manufacturers figures are based on bikes using autolube oils ridden hard, its safe to reduce amount of oil considerably if proper full synthetic pre-mix only oils are being used.
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Old 06-16-2013, 11:31 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by The Griz View Post
+100

Kerosene in 2T oil?

I present documents stating that the oils in question are FULLY SYNTHETIC, he makes claims that they're not without evidence. Until he presents evidence for his claims the forum needs to know he is simply stating his opinion. In fact, for a manufacturer to to state that their oil is fully synthetic is has to be just that, FULLY SYNTHETIC. No kerosene, no conspiracy theories from Twin-shocker. He apparently hasn't heard of the term false advertising.

I suppose he will reply to our posts with something regarding autolube.

I just got home from riding an enduro with my "non-autolube" KTM 300 XCW running FULLY SYNTHETIC LOW SMOKE Motorex Cross Power 2T.

To save even more guru confusion being taken as read on this thread I will respond once more...............If you can somehow alter the laws of physics to enable polybutene low smoke additives to flow through an autolube system, without being thinned down first, then I suggest you get in touch with the oil manufacturers as your obvious expertise is likely to save them an awful lot of money!

By the way as it seems you dont ride an autolube bike, then I wonder why exactly you would want to compromise lubrication by using an autolube oil in it? Its very easy to work out which are autolube and which are pre-mix oils as its marked on the containers, and the autolube oils are much thinner, which means more oil is needed, and corrosion protection isnt as good as proper pre-mix types.

Up to now I have not seen a lab report presented by you which suggests polybutene bearing autolube 2T oils are in fact fully synthetic, but I would be very interested to see one if you have such a thing. If you are claiming manufacturer advertising blurb is valid technically, then I think you have quite a bit to learn about how the advertising industry works!
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Old 06-17-2013, 05:18 AM   #158
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But guys he asked someone on the phone!! Surely that must count for something. And I bet he has Google as well. Not to mention he's in the UK,origin of all knowledge.
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Old 06-17-2013, 05:37 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
If you are claiming manufacturer advertising blurb is valid technically, then I think you have quite a bit to learn about how the advertising industry works!
and your calling a silkolene tech rep and asking them about 2t oil would guarantee non-biased info. you spoke on the phone to an employee of an oil producer. they'll give you the best info

you can spout all the rhetoric you want, i know what works for me. autolube has nothing to do with it. yourun your little pedestrian bikes at 100:1 (or whatever you run - you've never told us..), that's fine with me - i ran my montesa at 100:1 all day. but that's not relevant to 99% of what everyone else is running. your info is extremely misleading - your personal experience is with bikes that live a very easy life. mine do not. i am generally running small bore bikes in a race environment at wot 50+% of the time, over a much longer period (1-2 hours).
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Old 06-17-2013, 09:04 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
To save even more guru confusion being taken as read on this thread I will respond once more...............If you can somehow alter the laws of physics to enable polybutene low smoke additives to flow through an autolube system, without being thinned down first, then I suggest you get in touch with the oil manufacturers as your obvious expertise is likely to save them an awful lot of money!

By the way as it seems you dont ride an autolube bike, then I wonder why exactly you would want to compromise lubrication by using an autolube oil in it? Its very easy to work out which are autolube and which are pre-mix oils as its marked on the containers, and the autolube oils are much thinner, which means more oil is needed, and corrosion protection isnt as good as proper pre-mix types.

Up to now I have not seen a lab report presented by you which suggests polybutene bearing autolube 2T oils are in fact fully synthetic, but I would be very interested to see one if you have such a thing. If you are claiming manufacturer advertising blurb is valid technically, then I think you have quite a bit to learn about how the advertising industry works!
Dude, seriously with your autolube obsession.

I run Motorex Cross Power 2T. It is IN FACT FULLY SYNTHETIC. Period. It for damn sure doesn't contain kerosene. No 2T oil for motorcycles does for that matter. Stating that they do is comedic. Stop making claims that are not only funny but ridiculous. You haven't seen a lab report from me? True, and you're not going to. I haven't seen a lab report from you showing kerosene in 2T oil either. We'd be even, only I've presented documents stating that Castrol Power RS TTS 2T, Amsoil Dominator, Motorex Cross Power 2T, and Motul 800 are IN FACT fully synthetic. What don't you get about fully synthetic? In America if these oil manufacturers claim they are fully synthetic they are. I don't know how the legal system works in the UK, but here if freakin' 20% kerosene was found in a 2T oil advetised as fully synthetic, that company would be in a lot of trouble really quick. False advertising isn't taken lightly in the States, especially in MN.

And hey, you know how 2T engine oil manufacturers "alter the laws of physics" and thin polybutene low smoke additives in 2T oil.... WITH FUCKING GASOLINE!!! Gasoline thins that shit just the same as kerosene. You don't have to concoct a theory that kerosene exists in 2T oil to thin it.

And seriously, no more about 'autolube'. I don't run an autolube bike, and I don't run autolube oil. Period.

I too run my 2T KTM 300 XCW in race conditions for 4+ hours each time. KTM specifies Motorex Cross Power 2T at a 60:1 ratio. That is what I run. If KTM specified it, I will run it. And again, I don't want to hear 'autolube' in this thread ever again or I'll barf! Motorex Cross Power 2T does not contain kerosene, and is in fact fully synthetic. It can be used in both oil injected bikes and mix bikes, BUT IT DOES NOT CONTAIN KEROSENE.

And speaking of guru confusion, your statements claiming that the oils I've listed contain kerosene have put you far below guru status, that's for sure.
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The Griz screwed with this post 06-17-2013 at 12:00 PM
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Old 06-17-2013, 09:11 AM   #161
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but guys he asked someone on the phone!! surely that must count for something. And i bet he has google as well. Not to mention he's in the uk,origin of all knowledge.
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Originally Posted by stainlesscycle View Post
and your calling a silkolene tech rep and asking them about 2t oil would guarantee non-biased info. you spoke on the phone to an employee of an oil producer. They'll give you the best info

you can spout all the rhetoric you want, i know what works for me. Autolube has nothing to do with it. Yourun your little pedestrian bikes at 100:1 (or whatever you run - you've never told us..), that's fine with me - i ran my montesa at 100:1 all day. But that's not relevant to 99% of what everyone else is running. Your info is extremely misleading - your personal experience is with bikes that live a very easy life. Mine do not. I am generally running small bore bikes in a race environment at wot 50+% of the time, over a much longer period (1-2 hours).
+2
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Old 06-17-2013, 09:22 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
To save even more guru confusion being taken as read on this thread I will respond once more...............If you can somehow alter the laws of physics to enable polybutene low smoke additives to flow through an autolube system, without being thinned down first, then I suggest you get in touch with the oil manufacturers as your obvious expertise is likely to save them an awful lot of money!

By the way as it seems you dont ride an autolube bike, then I wonder why exactly you would want to compromise lubrication by using an autolube oil in it? Its very easy to work out which are autolube and which are pre-mix oils as its marked on the containers, and the autolube oils are much thinner, which means more oil is needed, and corrosion protection isnt as good as proper pre-mix types.

Up to now I have not seen a lab report presented by you which suggests polybutene bearing autolube 2T oils are in fact fully synthetic, but I would be very interested to see one if you have such a thing. If you are claiming manufacturer advertising blurb is valid technically, then I think you have quite a bit to learn about how the advertising industry works!
Ah come on... You just gotta love this guy
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Old 06-17-2013, 09:24 AM   #163
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PS, speaking of calls, I just got off the phone with an Amsoil technical representative. He confirmed, by looking at the companies data sheet and chemical makeup, that Amsoil Dominator DOES NOT contain kerosene. He listed off the makeup which included zinc, born, and a bunch of other things, but no kero. He also went on to say that he has never heard of a 2T oil containing kerosene. He said he could see kerosene potentially being used as a fuel additive for octane boost or something like that, but definitely not in oil. Take this as you will as posting that you called someone on a forum doesn't hold a lot of weight, but I did in fact just get off the phone with them as I wanted to settle this.
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:50 AM   #164
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and your calling a silkolene tech rep and asking them about 2t oil would guarantee non-biased info. you spoke on the phone to an employee of an oil producer. they'll give you the best info

you can spout all the rhetoric you want, i know what works for me. autolube has nothing to do with it. yourun your little pedestrian bikes at 100:1 (or whatever you run - you've never told us..), that's fine with me - i ran my montesa at 100:1 all day. but that's not relevant to 99% of what everyone else is running. your info is extremely misleading - your personal experience is with bikes that live a very easy life. mine do not. i am generally running small bore bikes in a race environment at wot 50+% of the time, over a much longer period (1-2 hours).

Fact No1 is that all 2T oils suitable to autolube use (which you suggest you use in your pre-mix bike), and carry Jaso, API, or ISO ratings, are low smoke.

Fact No2 is that polybutene additives are used in all Jaso, API, and ISO 2T oils as the smoke reducing agent.

Fact No3 is that polybutene is very thick, and needs to be thinned down to enable 2T oils with this additive to be used in autolube systems.

Fact No4 is that kerosene at around 20% is the thinning agent used in low smoke autolube 2T oils.

Fact No5 is that anyone with a pre-mix bike is going to be able to reduce amount of oil, and at the same time get better lubrication, if they use a proper pre-mix only fully synthetic 2T oil, rather than a watered down autolube product.


I guess that as a guru who simply doesnt seem to have even a basic idea of the subject matter on this thread, you are certainly going to dispute those facts, possibly with recourse to more ridiculous advertising blurb..............

Maybe before making yourself look even more foolish, you should take the time to read some SAE papers on 2T tribology, and place a little less faith in silly advertising nonsense?
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:59 AM   #165
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PS, speaking of calls, I just got off the phone with an Amsoil technical representative. He confirmed, by looking at the companies data sheet and chemical makeup, that Amsoil Dominator DOES NOT contain kerosene. He listed off the makeup which included zinc, born, and a bunch of other things, but no kero. He also went on to say that he has never heard of a 2T oil containing kerosene. He said he could see kerosene potentially being used as a fuel additive for octane boost or something like that, but definitely not in oil. Take this as you will as posting that you called someone on a forum doesn't hold a lot of weight, but I did in fact just get off the phone with them as I wanted to settle this.
I guess that cant be a low smoke oil then, which would explain why it doesnt contain low smoke additives that must be thinned with kero? If it isnt low smoke though, thats more than a little strange, bearing in mind the curious US obsession with "greenwash"?

But to be honest I am not altogether surprised that an oil producer who has been deliberately been deceiving customers by suggesting its low smoke autolube oil is "fully synthetic", is going to freely admit to the deception?

Still cant quite figure out why anyone would want to compromise lubrication performance by using very thin autolube oil in pre-mix bikes though, given the only possible advantage of this is a small cost saving?
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