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Old 03-28-2013, 09:25 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim McKittrick View Post
The article below is fairly illuminating-
http://www.klemmvintage.com/oils.htm
Thanks, Tim. Good article.
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:35 AM   #32
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Yamalube 2S, 40:1
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:13 PM   #33
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I bought a Yamaha YZ400C factory service manual. It calls for a 20:1 mix.
After reading this article by Jennings - http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com...oilpremix6.pdf - I guess that my Yamaha service manual assumes the use of castor bean oil (it is not specific), and therefore recommends the 20:1 ratio.
edit: It does state something to the effect that one must use up the premix, that it is no good after a day or so; so I assume they are talking about bean oil.
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craydds screwed with this post 03-28-2013 at 01:21 PM Reason: bean
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:17 PM   #34
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Yamalube 2S, 40:1
I am slowly learning; the Yamalube 2S is for oil injection. What bike do you have; oil injection or do you use premix? The Yamalube 2-R is made for premix.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:57 PM   #35
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1981 Yamaha IT465 manual says Yamalube R at 16:1 Castor at 20:1.

Is the latest Yamalube R made for aircooled?
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:24 PM   #36
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Is the latest Yamalube R made for aircooled?
Interesting, I will check into that. I know that Bel-Ray MC-1 says it's for air-cooled motors, pre-mix only.
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Old 03-29-2013, 04:15 AM   #37
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Well, I bought some Klotz --- http://www.klotzlube.com/techsheet.a...4&submit2=View .
In anticipation of getting the bike running I will give it a try. Cart before the horse you say?
My question is, how long will a batch of this premix last? Do I have to use it up right away? Guess I can mix up a gallon, burn it up, and mix up another. Will call Klotz and get the straight skinny.
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Old 03-29-2013, 05:29 AM   #38
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I mix it up fresh by the ride. And do my best to use it up. Race fuel has additives that allow some limited shelf life. But exposure to air causes the lead to oxidize reducing octane rating after a week or so. I drain the extra and toss it in the closest yard implement after the next weekend if I don't use it.
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Old 03-29-2013, 05:53 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by craydds View Post
Well, I bought some Klotz --- http://www.klotzlube.com/techsheet.a...4&submit2=View .
In anticipation of getting the bike running I will give it a try. Cart before the horse you say?
My question is, how long will a batch of this premix last? Do I have to use it up right away? Guess I can mix up a gallon, burn it up, and mix up another. Will call Klotz and get the straight skinny.

Excellent choice! Couldn't have mixed up a better batch myself.
Notice their recommended mix ratios, too.

Mix up what you think you will use up that day. If you are running race fuel, high octane fuel, store it in a metal gas can. Plastic gas cans can breath, allowing the more volatile compounds to escape, degrading your expensive fuel.

Liked that oil deposition bit in that one link above. That's basically the same concept as to what I was referring to as contact time.
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:18 AM   #40
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Excellent choice! Couldn't have mixed up a better batch myself.
I spoke with a technician at Klotz:
1. I asked if it was okay to mix Super TechniPlate to gasoline with Stabil additive; he said "No problem".
So gas-plus-Stabil is okay to use with the Klotz.
2. I asked about the "shelf-life" of this specific premix, he basically said no worries, it can last a few weeks if stored properly (sealed can, protected from temp. extremes, etc.). Anyway, it is likely that I will only mix up 1 or 2 gallons at a time. No need to mix up 5 gal. and store it.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:43 AM   #41
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I am slowly learning; the Yamalube 2S is for oil injection. What bike do you have; oil injection or do you use premix? The Yamalube 2-R is made for premix.
Yes it is made for the injection system but many vintage racers I know premix it. I don't think it says not to anywhere, just flows better and more consistently through the pump.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:13 AM   #42
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Most 2/'s will produce max power at a ratio around 18/20:1, contrary to the "conventional wisdom" that less oil produces more power. As for spooge, until you get below 16:1 the spooge is a result of improper (too rich) jetting. Even when we ran a 16:1 mix, we had no problems with spooge. However it was not unusual to change jets 2-3x's a day. Your typical recreational rider rarely ever changes the jets and consequently can be too lean at times but more often than not too rich.

I think it is Maxima that had some decent web pages that showed oil deposition and gave some good recommendations as to premix ratios needed to provide adequate lubrication.

With straight synthetic, the top end looked great, no problems with gumming up and sticking a ring. However on engine teardown, there was minimal residual oil coating on bearing surfaces, etc. With straight castor, it would have a tendency to gum up the rings and leave more residues on the crown. However in engine teardown, the lower end looked much better and had more residual oil film present. That's why we blended a full synthetic with a castor. Trial and error showed a ratio of 3:1 worked best using the oils we did in our engines.

BTW, if you read that Gordon Jennings paper on 2/'s, you will have a better understanding of a 2/ motor than 90% of the people that ride them.


Gordon Jennings testing on 2T oils is nearly 40 years out of date and bears little relevance to 2013. Contrary to popular belief most modern 2T "fully synthetic" oils are anything but, and have low smoke additives, which are generally thinned down with up to 20% kerosene. This leads to a very thin oil also suitable for use in 2T injection systems, but far from ideal for use in off road bikes, which may be used infrequently as the very thin oil provides little long term corrosion protection.

Using more oil than is required in low heat motors (trials, enduro, fun bikes) will quickly result in badly clogged exhaust systems, and excessive carbon build up in exhaust ports. All 2T motors tend to put about 25% of the intake charge straight out through the exhaust port, if you running 50% more oil than it required the end result of this is pretty obvious!

Too much oil tends to weaken the air-fuel mixture, and to compensate less than optimum carburetion settings are required, which will reduce power and make motors feel dead and unresponsive. Modern fully synthetic oils work very well indeed, and there are even specially developed oils which will greatly help with getting accurate plug colour readings if you chose to use modern E fuels, rather than specific race types.

10 years or more ago the idea of castor/synthetic hybrid oils was state of the art, but today pushing this is little more than a marketing scam, as advances in full synthetic technology mean modern full synthetic oils are superior to the hybrids, and far more suitable for serious competition use as varnish build up on internal parts is eliminated entirely, and if something like Castrol XR77 is used, its also far easier to get accurate plug readings if you are using pump fuel.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:10 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
but far from ideal for use in off road bikes, which may be used infrequently as the very thin oil provides little long term corrosion protection.

Using more oil than is required in low heat motors (trials, enduro, fun bikes) will quickly result in badly clogged exhaust systems, and excessive carbon build up in exhaust ports. All 2T motors tend to put about 25% of the intake charge straight out through the exhaust port, if you running 50% more oil than it required the end result of this is pretty obvious!

Too much oil tends to weaken the air-fuel mixture, and to compensate less than optimum carburetion settings are required, which will reduce power and make motors feel dead and unresponsive.

10 years or more ago the idea of castor/synthetic hybrid oils was state of the art, but today pushing this is little more than a marketing scam, as advances in full synthetic technology mean modern full synthetic oils are superior to the hybrids, and far more suitable for serious competition use as varnish build up on internal parts is eliminated entirely, and if something like Castrol XR77 is used, its also far easier to get accurate plug readings if you are using pump fuel.
Well, goes to point out what I had said, before you can give an answer, you need to know how the motor is going to be run, etc. I beleive this gentleman was referring to an air-cooled mid-70's YZ400, an off-road racing bike that doesn't have oil injection. No if he is going to put around on it, no he doesn't need the 20:1 most likely. In fact any pre-mix ratio is going to be wrong for a given engine as it goes thru the rpm range. In a common case scenario, it will be too rich on oil at idle, low rpm, maybe about right at mid-rpm, and lean at high rpm. Its why a very common place for racers to stick their motors is near the end of the tracks longest straight, after they have been at sustained high rpm. Its not so much their jetting is off, but that their pre-mix ratio is off.

THe point about not providing any corrosion resistance with the new thin oils, to me reinforces my comments about using the castor blend for the purpose of providing better lasting lubrication to the lower end.....*under race conditions*. See my comments on contact time and look at the Maxima link on oil deposition. THe modern synthetics simply to not provide a a lasting film of lubrication in the lower end that is spending most of its time around 10K rpm and above.

As for 25% of the intake charge going out the exhaust, you are indeed correct. However if you are doing nothing to recover that lost fuel charge, then you are wasting tons of potential power and you have a piss-poor designed exhaust, one that is designed for safety, not performance. One of the primary purposes of tuned expansion chambers is to recover that lost intake charge. The timing of the return wave coming back from the convergent cone is intended to reduce the amount of unburned fuel going out the pipe and to force it back into the cylinder, kind of a crude, but effective supercharging effect. It is possible to recover most of that 25% with the right pipe or to even go to far. Besides the shape of the pipes cones, header length also plays a part. Too short of a header length and you not only recover the unburned fuel, but you can also force burned gases back into the cylinder, reuslting in over heating and subsequent loss of lubrication on the exhaust side of the piston resulting a a stick.

COuld you explain a little bit more about your comment "Too much oil tends to weaken the air-fuel mixture". A little more detail on that would be appreciated.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:02 PM   #44
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If you choose to use injector type "fully synthetic" 2T oils, rather than proper pre-mix only race oils, in competition machinery then the very thin oil injector oil, may well lead to corrosion damage in some cases. However genuine full synthetic PRE MIX ONLY oils, all provide excellent corrosion protection, and some such as Castrol XR77 have been specifically developed to help with providing accurate plug colour readings when alcohol bearing fuels are being used.


In terms of fuel/oil ratio, serious road racers riding 2T bikes, very often vary the ratio for different tracks, using more oil on tracks with extended periods of WO running, to help with heat dissipation, and less oil on tracks with more twists and turns, as this tends to improve throttle response. Most play bike riders make the mistake of using far too much oil, and if a rider chooses to use more oil than is really required, its best to use a good quality semi synthetic or mineral type oil, for the simple reason these burn much more easily than full synthetics, and less will find its way into the exhaust port and exhaust system.

Not many people are in a position to be able to design and manufacture an expansion chamber that works properly for their particular bike, and many 2t bikes dont have expansion type systems anyway, so 25% of the intake charge making its way out of the exhaust port on every revolution of the crank is an unfortunate fact of life on almost every production bike. This means that there is certainly a need to either use the correct type and amount of 2T oil, or to get used to servicing exhaust system parts much more regularly than really required, or to simply put up with a bike that may not run all that well.

Overly oily fuel mixtures are higher in viscosity than those using less oil, which means carbs need to be set up with this in mind, as the higher viscosity fuel requires bigger jets to achieve the same fuel flow which would be the case if the correct amount of oil was being used. Less fuel flow tends to weaken the air/fuel mixture, and in combination with more oily mixtures not burning as easily as those with less oil, leads to reduced levels of power, and dead, flat feeling motors.
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Old 04-01-2013, 06:12 PM   #45
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[/QUOTE] Overly oily fuel mixtures are higher in viscosity than those using less oil, which means carbs need to be set up with this in mind, as the higher viscosity fuel requires bigger jets to achieve the same fuel flow which would be the case if the correct amount of oil was being used. Less fuel flow tends to weaken the air/fuel mixture, and in combination with more oily mixtures not burning as easily as those with less oil, leads to reduced levels of power, and dead, flat feeling motors.[/QUOTE]



It's probably been mentioned before but it bears repeating: more oil in your mix means there is less fuel per volume of measure and this means your carburation trends lean. Thus a 20:1 mix is going to be leaner than a 50:1 ratio. As to the degree of the leaning effect of viscosity I can't say, but both result in the same tuning considerations needing to be made.
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