ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Old's Cool > Airheads
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-07-2013, 03:03 PM   #31
supershaft
because I can
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Oddometer: 7,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by brittrunyon View Post
According to Clymer:

It's the same bean can in my '92 GS.........
The can's are all interchangeable. Make sure your GS can times from the S mark to the Z mark. They very often don't.
supershaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 03:34 PM   #32
brittrunyon OP
R 100 GS F 650 GS
 
brittrunyon's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2010
Location: The High Desert of New Mexico
Oddometer: 444
So at the moment:

The timing light is now on it's own external battery power.

Swapped out bean cans:
...........no change noted in the timing problem
...........the known "good" bean can was advanced as far as possible & timing was still retarded as before, (maybe more?)
...........if I looked down on the window I could see the OT (below the window), the S was out of sight (at 1k rpm's)
...........with no Z mark seen at 3k-4k rpm's
...........the S mark is in the window at 2k rpm's

That tells me the bean can is not the problem.

The "good" bean can times perfectly, S to Z, on my GS.
__________________
1992 R 100 GS (ZED)
2007 F 650 GS

My Motorcycle Videos & More @ http://vimeo.com/user2721333
No Rules Photography @ http://brittrunyon.com/
brittrunyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 04:08 PM   #33
supershaft
because I can
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Oddometer: 7,578
You need a new timing chain, tensioner, and crank sprocket. That or, as AW said, your cam is mistimed but I doubt that.

I would fix that ASAP. Your timing that far off really effects performance and mileage.

supershaft screwed with this post 04-07-2013 at 04:19 PM
supershaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 05:14 PM   #34
brittrunyon OP
R 100 GS F 650 GS
 
brittrunyon's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2010
Location: The High Desert of New Mexico
Oddometer: 444
So there you have it.......

I guess this is one of those good news/bad news moments

The real problem is that it's the wife's bike & she wants to ride.

So now.......

If I'm to tackle this I need to start on it immediately or it will be September before I can even touch the bike.

I'm supposing for a barn yard mechanic this is an all day job?


Oh almost forgot.......

Cheers to all you threw in their expertise here!
__________________
1992 R 100 GS (ZED)
2007 F 650 GS

My Motorcycle Videos & More @ http://vimeo.com/user2721333
No Rules Photography @ http://brittrunyon.com/
brittrunyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 07:56 PM   #35
supershaft
because I can
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Oddometer: 7,578
It takes some wherewithal. Special tools too. You will need at least mapp gas for heat. Do not forget the upper two donut gaskets. Hold the chain in with the old master link and push that one out with the new. I replace the front crank ball bearing too. Be very careful heating up the crank sprocket to put it on. If the tips of the sprocket teeth turn color thy have lost their temper and will wear prematurely. Good luck!
supershaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2013, 05:37 AM   #36
brittrunyon OP
R 100 GS F 650 GS
 
brittrunyon's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2010
Location: The High Desert of New Mexico
Oddometer: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
It takes some wherewithal. Special tools too. You will need at least mapp gas for heat. Do not forget the upper two donut gaskets. Hold the chain in with the old master link and push that one out with the new. I replace the front crank ball bearing too. Be very careful heating up the crank sprocket to put it on. If the tips of the sprocket teeth turn color thy have lost their temper and will wear prematurely. Good luck!
Well now,
I got the wherewithal (most of the time anyway).
My preparation for this repair is reading the procedure in my Clymer.
I don't see anything there that seems overwhelming or impossible for me to do.
I plan on doing this with the motor on the bike, not on the bench and making a day of it (I hope)(with luck).

The special tool you speak of, is that a puller for the sprocket, or.........................?(I have a variety of pullers)
I'm supposing the Maap gas is for heating the cover prior to removal?......I only have a Benzomatic propane torch.
I do have a oven for heating the sprocket.

I'm compiling a shopping list now
....................will use MAX BMW
....................looking at the fiche can't ID the "upper two donut" gaskets?

7...........timing chain
9...........chain tensioner
10.........spring
2...........crank sprocket
8...........crank ball bearing
7...........timing cover gasket
8...........cam shaft seal
?..........."upper two donut gaskets"...?

Will I need the cam shaft sprocket?


 photo Page-01-Version2_zps4c034a4e.jpg


Any advice on the parts list would be appreciated. I don't want to get half way in & find I have to wait on parts.

I'm still working on "Hold the chain in with the old master link and push that one out with the new" but I'll get it.

Thanks All!
__________________
1992 R 100 GS (ZED)
2007 F 650 GS

My Motorcycle Videos & More @ http://vimeo.com/user2721333
No Rules Photography @ http://brittrunyon.com/

brittrunyon screwed with this post 04-09-2013 at 05:25 AM
brittrunyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2013, 08:33 AM   #37
Bill Harris
Confirmed Curmudgeon
 
Bill Harris's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: backwoods Alabama
Oddometer: 4,892
Donuts are #9 in the middle parts fiche. Needed because of the thickness of the #7 main gasket. You'll need a #8 crankshaft seal from that fiche, no camshaft seal.

The cam sprocket doesn't wear as quickly.

The replacement timing chain will (ought to) have a master link instead of a continuous chain. Cut the old chain off.

--Bill
__________________
'73 R60/5 Toaster
Bill Harris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2013, 08:44 AM   #38
brittrunyon OP
R 100 GS F 650 GS
 
brittrunyon's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2010
Location: The High Desert of New Mexico
Oddometer: 444
Bill,

Thanks for the ID on the donuts.

Right-o on the crankshaft seal.
Right-o on no camshaft seal.

Wait......the camshaft seal in this bike could 32 years old.
I think it would be wise to do all I could while I'm in there.

Looking at the fiche the new chain does have a master link.
__________________
1992 R 100 GS (ZED)
2007 F 650 GS

My Motorcycle Videos & More @ http://vimeo.com/user2721333
No Rules Photography @ http://brittrunyon.com/

brittrunyon screwed with this post 04-08-2013 at 11:29 AM
brittrunyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2013, 11:45 AM   #39
supershaft
because I can
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Oddometer: 7,578
The chain has a master link. You won't have to cut it.

You don't need the spring. It's really a hydraulic piston. I would rather get a new C clip for the tensioner just in case the original gets loose after removing it.

I would get an bean can O-ring or two. THAT is your cam seal.

Yes, you will need a good puller and a torch to heat up the sprocket real good to get the sprocket off. I heat them up enough to but them on by hand. Hold it tight against the crank as it cools because once it does it isn't going to move easily. Unlike the duplex cam sprockets, the simplex cam sprockets almost never wear. Check the camshaft end play and front cam bearing for play while you have the chain off. I use a good inch pound torque wrench for the cover. Heat it up taking it off AND putting it back on.

supershaft screwed with this post 04-08-2013 at 12:24 PM
supershaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2013, 12:25 PM   #40
disston
ShadeTreeExpert
 
disston's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Silver Spring, Md
Oddometer: 7,319
The puller.

Ist thing to know is that you need a button or what is called a bearing on the tip of the puller. Many use a copper penny but this doesn't work if the tip of the puller is pointy. If a button is not used the tip of the crankshaft is often messed up. This can usually be dressed but it is not a pretty sight so use a button.

Pull the front crank bearing 1st. Pull it before pulling the crank sproket. Often the sprocket is on so tight it does not want to come off. Getting the bearing out of the way first will help.

Use heat on the sprocket. It helps. Since the crank is steel and the sprocket is steel it is helpful to do several rounds with the heat gun and allow to cool in between. (I use a Mapp gas torch)

You need a heavy puller. I think about 15 tons minimum. A steering wheel or harmonic balancer puller is not heavy enough. One of this type is what I use;



I like to use the bearing separator shown with this puller but hook type legs will also work if held in by big enough metal. The one I have is a Snap On but other professional brands are also suitable.

I always change the sprocket and the crank front bearing. Have never changed the cam shaft gear.
__________________
.
Never memorize something you can look up.
---Albert Einstein

Pay your debt, privatejohn.http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=949341
disston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2013, 12:38 PM   #41
Plaka
Brevis illi vita est
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Oddometer: 4,448
Quote:
Originally Posted by brittrunyon View Post
Well now,
I got the wherewithal (most of the time anyway).
My preparation for this repair is reading the procedure in my Clymer.
I don't see anything there that seems overwhelming or impossible for me to do.
I plan on doing this with the motor on the bike, not on the bench and making a day of it (I hope)(with luck).

The special tool you speak of, is that a puller for the sprocket, or.........................?(I have a variety of pullers)
I'm supposing the Maap gas is for heating the cover prior to removal?......I only have a Benzomatic propane torch.
I do have a oven for heating the sprocket.

I'm compiling a shopping list now
....................will use MAX BMW
....................looking at the fiche can't ID the "upper two donut" gaskets?

7...........timing chain
9...........chain tensioner
10.........spring
2...........crank sprocket
8...........crank ball bearing
7...........timing cover gasket
8...........cam shaft seal
?..........."upper two donut gaskets"...?

Will I need the cam shaft sprocket?





Any advice on the parts list would be appreciated. I don't want to get half way in & find I have to wait on parts.

I'm still working on "Hold the chain in with the old master link and push that one out with the new" but I'll get it.

Thanks All!
You don't need to replace the bearing unless it's bad (unlikely) or it gets screwed up getting pulled off. You never want to apply force across the rolling elements of a bearing. If you do that, you just screwed it up and you need to replace it. if the only puller you have is going to work that way, then indeed order a bearing.

New seals all around, they're cheap.

You can use a bolt cutter on the chain but might have to shorten the bolt cutter handles.

Consider removing the front wheel and fender for better elbow room.

If working on the centerstand, tie it off.

Don't strip the exhaust nuts, make sure they come off before ordering parts.

Propane will do as will a heat gun. MAPP is extremely hot and more difficult to control.
Plaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2013, 12:52 PM   #42
disston
ShadeTreeExpert
 
disston's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Silver Spring, Md
Oddometer: 7,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaka View Post

Propane will do as will a heat gun. MAPP is extremely hot and more difficult to control.
I ruined a front crank bearing once with a heat gun. I had the heat gun propped up so I could walk away and I forgot to go back in time. The bearing was several colors of blue and black. It felt like it was full of sand when spun. So now I use what ever I have around and that is usually my Bernz-O-Matic torch with Mapp gas cylinder.
__________________
.
Never memorize something you can look up.
---Albert Einstein

Pay your debt, privatejohn.http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=949341
disston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2013, 12:59 PM   #43
Plaka
Brevis illi vita est
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Oddometer: 4,448
Quote:
Originally Posted by disston View Post
I ruined a front crank bearing once with a heat gun. I had the heat gun propped up so I could walk away and I forgot to go back in time. The bearing was several colors of blue and black. It felt like it was full of sand when spun. So now I use what ever I have around and that is usually my Bernz-O-Matic torch with Mapp gas cylinder.
Leave that propped up and walk away and see what happens....


What you just said:

"I used something hot, propped it up and walked away and ruined things. So now I use something hotter..."

You don't want more heat but more patience.
Plaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2013, 01:44 PM   #44
supershaft
because I can
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Oddometer: 7,578
The sprocket and crank are both made of steel but the sprocket is much, much smaller so it gets much hotter than the crank and expands a lot more than the crank. There is no need to heat up the sprocket in steps or stages. That would do much more harm than good by giving the crank a chance to heat up.

Personally, I wouldn't use a bar puller. You have a really good chance of really bending the bearing separator. I use a three jaw puller myself.

You really should not heat up ball bearings with a torch. The inside and outside races will heat up at different rates and the balls will dent the races.

Plaka, what kind of puller doesn't pull on that ball bearing's outside race thusly 'screwing up' the bearing?

Once again, there is no need to cut the chain. It has a master link.

Since when is MAPP extremely hot? It's barely any warmer than straight propane. Personally, I use oxy/acetylene. MAPP is just barely hot enough IMO.

Good idea about the exhaust. I forgot to mention that. Some are in the way and some aren't.
supershaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2013, 01:55 PM   #45
Plaka
Brevis illi vita est
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Oddometer: 4,448
BTW, Open it up and look around before you order stuff. It will be out of service the same amount of time any way you play it.

You will use the puller again rarely if ever. Borrow one from the auto parts place.
Plaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 01:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014