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Old 05-22-2013, 05:54 PM   #601
Shao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorat View Post
why didn't they use the speedmaster instead of the bonneville?

Speedmaster falls into "couch on wheels" catagory, along with Star950, Valcan 900 and 883C to some degree.

883 Iron, Bolt, Boneville, and V7 are in another catagory which is for hipsters, regarless their different riding positions.

These are of course my very personal opinion.

Shao screwed with this post 05-22-2013 at 06:02 PM
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:02 PM   #602
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Originally Posted by Randy View Post
Hmmmm... Why compare it to the 883 when the 1200 is available? Most people in the Sporty market are going to pick a 1200 over the 883 anyway if they care about performance at all. IMO, you can't compare based on engine displacement alone. Instead, to be fair to yourself you should really be comparing it to other similar bikes that potential buyers will be shopping it against. IMO, that would be the XL1200 more times than not.

Faster 0-60 - See comment about XL1200
Faster quarter mile - See comment about XL1200
Better gas mileage -Maybe so
Better throttle response -Maybe so
Better clutch engagement -Maybe so although my Sporty's clutch feels good to me.
More efficient transmission -Maybe so
Better ergos - Ergos are WAY too subjective to make such a blanket statement IMO. ANd again, this is stock to stock, but as we know, a lot of people change things like that on this type of bike anyway. I'm quite happy with the ergos on my 48 now that I have it set up the way I prefer. Seat looks to low on the Bolt, IMO And that's hard to "fix".
Better wind protection - -Maybe so but not a huge consideration for me on this type of bike, personally
More comfortable ride. -Maybe so, but suspension would need to be upgraded on them both to make me happy.
Better front fork control - -Probably so since the stock HD forks pretty much suck and really need springs and Intiminators to function well. Then again, so equipped they would be better that the Bolt's.
"A torquier powerband" -Maybe so, but again, see comment about the XL1200 above.
"The Bolt sounds burlier" - -Maybe so. But exhaust would probably be changed on both bikes by many if not all. And at least the stock Sporty exhaust is attractive. Can't say that about the Bolt's. And there's really not much that can be done about the butt ugly tank seam on the Bolt either...


I also disagree with a few things in the above quoted review. They talk about doing 70 on the freeway in 4th. Did they not know that the Sporty has had a 5 speed box for a while now?

Another thing... anyone that's ridden a rubbermount knows that while they do vibe a little, it is a low frequency type of thing. I don't find it objectionable at all. It's quite unlike the buzz that a lot of other bikes have. "Shake the fillings out of your teeth"? PUH-LEEASE! That sounds like a throwback to times gone by before the rubbermount 1200.

Then there's the "burlier sound". Comparing stock to stock that may very well be true, but in all honesty, how many Sporty riders leave the exhaust stock?

I'm sure that the Bolt is a fine bike and will suit the taste and needs of many. Not trying to put it down at all, but I really think that if we're going to do a comparison, lets look at its "real" competition, if not on price point, then at least what other bikes the actual buyers will be looking at. For me personally, the decision was easy for a multitude of reasons.

Can you guess which way I went?


Did you really just completely and matter of factly throw out one of the motorcycles actually in this comparison and substitute it with one that cost 24-27% more and has 21% more displacement? Really? And any point left you couldn't manipulate with that rational, you simply "overcame" with "If you spend even more $$$ on an already more expensive H-D it will blah blah blah..."

Pretty amazing logic

And as far as the "shake the fillings out of your teeth" remark goes, I'll quote Ken "Hawkeye" Glassman's Bolt review that hit today on speedtv.com

"The motorcycle that is the closest comparison to the Bolt is Harley-Davidson’s Iron 883. The price is identical, and the dimensions are similar – with the Bolt being 4.4 inches longer overall, and a two inch longer wheelbase. The Bolt has 1.2 inches more ground clearance, 3 more ft. lbs. of torque and weighs 33 lbs less than the Sporty. But the numbers don’t tell the story. The Bolt is a far superior motorcycle in all areas. It is quicker, runs smoother, shifts better, handles better, provides more ground clearance and lean angle, has a quiet belt drive instead of a chain, and the ride quality is far better than the Sportster. In the lower gears at high rpm on the Bolt, you get some buzz in the mirrors making things look a bit fuzzy. On the Sportster the mirrors shake so much, even at idle, they’re virtually useless. With excellent fit and finish, the Bolt is what a Harley Sportster should have been for the last 40 years."

Quote:
Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
I think this point has been brought up by others but dismissed by many here....

"One area the Bolt feels particularly larger is between a rider’s legs. The cylinder heads on the Bolt are wide and the airbox is big so you can’t snug up as close to the bike as the Sporty or Bonnie. Your right leg presses against the airbox on the right side while the exposed cylinder head on the left side has a wire bracket to protect a rider’s leg but it digs in at the top of your calf. It also detracts from its fit-and-finish as it looks like it was placed there as a last-second decision after Star realized riders would be burning their leg on the left jug if they didn’t do something."

So is this better ergos?

Like I stated and Randy pointed out...if your looking at this type of bike in the HD line-up and want or need performace that will spank the Bolt you would buy the 1200 off the floor or buy an 883 and easily convert to 1200 or 1250 cc.
Yes, even after all the hullabaloo over the dreaded wire bracket, the reviewers still said the Bolt offered a better/more comfortable riding position

And again, yes you can spend 24-27% more on a completely different model, or spend an additional $3000+ on an 883 and "spank the Bolt" to your hearts content

HondaFanatic screwed with this post 05-22-2013 at 10:39 PM
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:19 PM   #603
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The America (more-or-less a Speedmaster) I demo'd was the singularly most unpleasant motorcycle I ever rode. I couldn't wait to get off it. I like the Bonneville, my issues with the America were all ergonomic. I hated the peg position and the front wheel falling into turns.

The America, for me, managed with it's weird ergos to ruin what, without the cruiser-esque form factor, is a bike I like (the Bonneville).

The article comparing the Bonnie, Bolt, and Sporty made me realize how limited the power of these machines is, if the Bonnie is the powerhouse of the trio. They're decent enough performing bikes, but hardly sporting relative to higher spec machines. That said, they have enough.

The Bolt is a fine looking motorcycle, as are some variations of the Sporty, but with insurance in Toronto, Ontario being among the highest in North America and selling by the cc, I would have a problem buying 500cc performance at a 900 +/- cc price
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:32 PM   #604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
Smokes the 883?


Yeah, seems pretty silly don't it ? My Ninja 250 will "smoke" an 883 but I won't be running around bragging about it nor would I pick it over the 883 just because it would win a shootout. All of the bikes in the shootout are so far away from being performance vehicles that a shootout in and of itself seems ridiculous to me.



Why is it that the diehard faithfuls of all camps (Metric, Euro, Mercan') feel the need to bash other brands or do the whole "Look,see!!! I told yuh it's better!!" crap? Just buy what you like, go fucking ride the thing and if you feel the need to make a silly comment, try stuffing a magazine shootout article in your pie hole.
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:37 PM   #605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger Beard View Post
Yeah, seems pretty silly don't it ? My Ninja 250 will "smoke" an 883 but I won't be running around bragging about it nor would I pick it over the 883 just because it would win a shootout. All of the bikes in the shootout are so far away from being performance vehicles that a shootout in and of itself seems ridiculous to me.



Why is it that the diehard faithfuls of all camps (Metric, Euro, Mercan') feel the need to bash other brands or do the whole "Look,see!!! I told yuh it's better!!" crap? Just buy what you like, go fucking ride the thing and if you feel the need to make a silly comment, try stuffing a magazine shootout article in your pie hole.




Some of the dick swinging about what brand or bike is best gets tiresome.

Just ride what ya like, end of story.
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:19 PM   #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaFanatic View Post
And again, yes you can spend 24-27% more on a completely different model, or spend an additional $3000+ on an 883 and "spank the Bolt" to your hearts content


No doubt the Bolt as delivered off the showroom floor outperforms the 883. It should since it has a bigger engine and less weight.

Most HD owners, whether they are interested in performance or not, pay the so called "Harley Tax" which in the carb days ment a re-jet, slipons or complete exhaust, and air filter upgrade. With FI it's a simple 30 second EFI map download along with pipes and air filter and typically nets 5-10 hp/tq, putting the 883 above the Bolt.

I admit I don't know much about Yamaha OEM or aftermarket performance parts. Are there performace exhausts, air filters, EFI maps currently available for the Bolt? Kraven has mentioned one could have custom pistons made and custom cams ground. I can only imagine the cost for machining low volume custom parts would be very expensive relative to off the shelf performance parts that are readily available for HDs.

$3000? You can convert an 883 to 1200/1250 for under $1000 with kits from HD or aftermarket oufits like Hammer Performance if one is interested in performance http://hammerperf.com/xlbigborekits.shtml

And if really looking to go fast you can add cams and headwork and easily get over 100hp at the rear wheel for less than $3k

http://hammerperf.com/dynoroom.shtml

Point being is that both these bikes are platforms that an onwer can customize in performance parts, suspension work, chrome, paint, or whatever their heart desires and most HD owners buy their bikes knowing full well they will "pay the tax"....so the comments about the Bolt smashing the 883 are only vaild if one assumes the 883 will be ridden in completely stock form and I contend that very few HD owners keep their bikes stock. Sure they will pay more than the Bolt's price but to date they have been more than willing to do so. Time will tell if the Bolt will change this pattern and it's intoduction is a positive for all of motorcycling.
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:19 PM   #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger Beard View Post
Yeah, seems pretty silly don't it ? My Ninja 250 will "smoke" an 883 but I won't be running around bragging about it nor would I pick it over the 883 just because it would win a shootout. All of the bikes in the shootout are so far away from being performance vehicles that a shootout in and of itself seems ridiculous to me.



Why is it that the diehard faithfuls of all camps (Metric, Euro, Mercan') feel the need to bash other brands or do the whole "Look,see!!! I told yuh it's better!!" crap? Just buy what you like, go fucking ride the thing and if you feel the need to make a silly comment, try stuffing a magazine shootout article in your pie hole.
When I wrote "smokes" I wasn't referring to speed, I was referring to placement/ranking in the article.

Who gives a shit what you think about non performance bike "shootout" comparisons?

And then because in a Bolt thread, I displayed pleasure in the Bolt beating out it's closest competitor, in an article that's sole purpose was to pit these bikes against each other, you tell me to "stuff" something into my "pie hole"? I'm always amazed at the balls the security of the internet gives to some people, verses what they'd be allowed to get away with in person.

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Old 05-22-2013, 08:38 PM   #608
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I got a chance to see the Bolt in person today and I really don't think HD has anything to worry about. Side by side, the Sporty seems to be the better made, more finished bike. I care nothing about either one really and wouldn't buy either new. But if I were in the market for that type of bike, HD would get my money. Add in the weight of aftermarket... eh, there's no way I'd buy the Yamaha as there would simply be no compelling reason to do so.
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:50 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
No doubt the Bolt as delivered off the showroom floor outperforms the 883. It should since it has a bigger engine and less weight.

*That's all this article was about...a right out of the box, straight stock comparison*

Most HD owners, whether they are interested in performance or not, pay the so called "Harley Tax" which in the carb days ment a re-jet, slipons or complete exhaust, and air filter upgrade. With FI it's a simple 30 second EFI map download along with pipes and air filter and typically nets 5-10 hp/tq, putting the 883 above the Bolt.

*How much more does someone have to spend on this "Harley tax" in order to out perform a stock Bolt?*

I admit I don't know much about Yamaha OEM or aftermarket performance parts. Are there performace exhausts, air filters, EFI maps currently available for the Bolt? Kraven has mentioned one could have custom pistons made and custom cams ground. I can only imagine the cost for machining low volume custom parts would be very expensive relative to off the shelf performance parts that are readily available for HDs.

$3000? You can convert an 883 to 1200/1250 for under $1000 with kits from HD or aftermarket oufits like Hammer Performance if one is interested in performance http://hammerperf.com/xlbigborekits.shtml

*See below*

And if really looking to go fast you can add cams and headwork and easily get over 100hp at the rear wheel for less than $3k

http://hammerperf.com/dynoroom.shtml

*My bad. These are the mods I was referring to. All together the mods on your link add up to over $2700 + shipping to and back*

Point being is that both these bikes are platforms that an onwer can customize in performance parts, suspension work, chrome, paint, or whatever their heart desires and most HD owners buy their bikes knowing full well they will "pay the tax"....so the comments about the Bolt smashing the 883 are only vaild if one assumes the 883 will be ridden in completely stock form and I contend that very few HD owners keep their bikes stock. Sure they will pay more than the Bolt's price but to date they have been more than willing to do so. Time will tell if the Bolt will change this pattern and it's intoduction is a positive for all of motorcycling.

*The comparison article, not me, "assumed" stock since that's what it's based on*
I'm not going to take anything away from the amount of aftermarket performance add on's the Sportster enjoys. You Harley guys have damn near limitless goodies to choose from. I simply posted a link to a article that stated a stock Bolt beat out a stock Sportster in a heads up competition.

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Old 05-22-2013, 09:05 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by ShardPhoenix View Post



Some of the dick swinging about what brand or bike is best gets tiresome.

Just ride what ya like, end of story.

Some people just love to argue and seem to know how to pick the right spot to get one.
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:27 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by waveydavey View Post
Some people just love to argue and seem to know how to pick the right spot to get one.
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:29 PM   #612
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How much to spend on Harley Tax?

Roughly $500 if your just after slip-on pipes, that includes EFI download, air filter kit, and mufflers but one could spend a lot more if they go with a complete EFI programmer vs a download and full exhaust.....you can score good deals on Ebay.

Although not an 883, I paid $300 for Supertrapp slip-ons and $50 for a K&N air filter for my XR1200. I decided to go full Screamin Eagle Race Tuner rather than a piggy back type fuel controller. It dynoed at 87.5 hp and 75.1 tq with stock heads, cams, pistons. Off course it comes off the factory line with better heads, higher compression and different cams than the XL1200 and 883 but hardly any one bought them so HD discontinued The XR. All the Sportster engines, 883 and 1200s are essentially the same and all you need to do is swap the cylinders and pistons to go from 883 to 1200. The 883 to 1250 kit in the link I posted is only $695. If you want 100 hp then yes, you may spend about $3k but just punching out from 883 to 1200 with stock heads and cams will get you above 65 hp.
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:58 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
How much to spend on Harley Tax?

Roughly $500 if your just after slip-on pipes, that includes EFI download, air filter kit, and mufflers but one could spend a lot more if they go with a complete EFI programmer vs a download and full exhaust.....you can score good deals on Ebay.

Although not an 883, I paid $300 for Supertrapp slip-ons and $50 for a K&N air filter for my XR1200. I decided to go full Screamin Eagle Race Tuner rather than a piggy back type fuel controller. It dynoed at 87.5 hp and 75.1 tq with stock heads, cams, pistons. Off course it comes off the factory line with better heads, higher compression and different cams than the XL1200 and 883 but hardly any one bought them so HD discontinued The XR. All the Sportster engines, 883 and 1200s are essentially the same and all you need to do is swap the cylinders and pistons to go from 883 to 1200. The 883 to 1250 kit in the link I posted is only $695. If you want 100 hp then yes, you may spend about $3k but just punching out from 883 to 1200 with stock heads and cams will get you above 65 hp.
Man, I envy you H-D guys. Riding Honda's all these years, there's always aftermarket support for looks/comfort/convenience items, but rarely anything (other than exhaust, air cleaners, tunes, etc) "off the rack" for performance. Mainly because the models/engines don't stay around as long.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:33 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by HondaFanatic View Post
I'm always amazed at the balls the security of the internet gives to some people, verses what they'd be allowed to get away with in person.

Did you just imply that there would be some type of dire consequence to me telling you to stuff a magazine article into your pie hole if we were face to face? AWESOME!!
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Old 05-22-2013, 11:12 PM   #615
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Did you just imply that there would be some type of dire consequence to me telling you to stuff a magazine article into your pie hole if we were face to face? AWESOME!!
I rarely "imply" anything even to someone as childish as yourself. I'm known as a much more "direct and to the point" kind of man. But since I'm on a privately owned forum, and can be made to leave at anytime, i try and keep my responses civil. Even though at times it's tough when complete strangers go out of their way to push buttons.

But what I will do is this...you have an open invitation to enjoy some "face to face" southern hospitality from a fellow biker in Georgia anytime you'd like. We're in neighboring states, and now that the weathers nice, you might actually enjoy making the trip. I know I would, "friend".

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