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Old 04-22-2013, 11:16 AM   #31
goodburbon
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How do you get 390Beretta's one armed wife out of a tree?


Wave to her





As for a Course, I'd love to take one, and was seriously considering it when we thought we had an extra course booked, but I just found out today that I'd be yelled at for modulating my front brake, or keeping a finger on it at slow speeds.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:18 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by goodburbon View Post
As for a Course, I'd love to take one, and was seriously considering it when we thought we had an extra course booked, but I just found out today that I'd be yelled at for modulating my front brake, or keeping a finger on it at slow speeds.
I had to to do the ERC bi-annually when I was in the military. I usually got the coaches to give up about the 4 finger thing. Usually pointing them at my front wheel and pointing out there was a pair of 120mm discs there got them to back off.
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Show folks something with a clutch and carburetor, and it's like teaching a baboon to use a Macbook.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:23 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Tripped1 View Post
...MSF isn't the bible. They make a number of calls in order to prevent litigation and to preserve their equipment. All well and good, but as they tell you in MSF "congrats, you can now ride in a parking lot."

Things like four finger braking, never throttling with the brake covered, no trail braking. Things like that.
The best way to prevent litigation and preserve equipment is to do what works and is safest for NEW* riders, with data/experience to back it up.

We've been over this ground before but for the benefit of anyone just joining us, the MSF BRC is for BEGINNERS*, inlcuding people who have never ridden before. It aims to give them the best start possible in just 15 hours. Trail braking does not fit with that model.

Some RiderCoaches have been known to congratulate people over riding in a parking lot but that's really crass - even though they are trying to make a good point that completion of the BRC should just the first step in learning to ride safely on the road. The course covers the BASICS*, in a safe place away from traffic. That has been determined to be the best way to do it when you've only got people for a couple of days.

[*concepts you repeatedly fail to grasp]
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:25 AM   #34
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Hey, she's getting better at picking up the bike a lot faster than you are!

It's all a matter of perspective. :)
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:45 AM   #35
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NOPE?

hahaha luv it, even if it's stupid!

Let's talk about this: Even in the damn Moto GP, some riders use 1 or 2 fingers and some use all 4...

Guess those using 4 just have shitty brakes right? Yeah, those Duc's can't stop worth a shit...

Look, different bikes obviously (duh!!) have better or worse stopping capabilities.

The MSF is just making it clear that most of your braking ability is the front wheel. They are making it clear to NEW riders to help them understand why they need to use BOTH brakes.

Bikes abilities will vary (no shit! really! are u sure??? - sheeesus yer killin me here with this ignorance!) But you might want to consider, NEW Riders generally don't go and buy a 190 mph Eye-A-Buser (or whatever) for their first bikes!!

their instruction is not a bad thing, and if you can do better call them and tell them or start your own business.

Cheers
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:51 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by AzItLies View Post
NOPE?

hahaha luv it, even if it's stupid!

Let's talk about this: Even in the damn Moto GP, some riders use 1 or 2 fingers and some use all 4...

Guess those using 4 just have shitty brakes right? Yeah, those Duc's can't stop worth a shit...

Look, different bikes obviously (duh!!) have better or worse stopping capabilities.

The MSF is just making it clear that most of your braking ability is the front wheel. They are making it clear to NEW riders to help them understand why they need to use BOTH brakes.

Bikes abilities will vary (no shit! really! are u sure??? - sheeesus yer killin me here with this ignorance!) But you might want to consider, NEW Riders generally don't go and buy a 190 mph Eye-A-Buser (or whatever) for their first bikes!!

their instruction is not a bad thing, and if you can do better call them and tell them or start your own business.

Cheers

New riders sure as shit do. In fact go over to the sportbikes.net and there are 5-6 posts a month by people that just bought new 600cc super sports as their first bikes.

So its only 170mph eyerbusa, but everything else I said holds.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:10 PM   #37
AzItLies
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New riders sure as shit do. In fact go over to the sportbikes.net and there are 5-6 posts a month by people that just bought new 600cc super sports as their first bikes.

So its only 170mph eyerbusa, but everything else I said holds.
Yes they sure as shit do, and many of them end up killing themselves.

everything I said holds as well.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:11 PM   #38
AzItLies
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Originally Posted by goodburbon View Post
How do you get 390Beretta's one armed wife out of a tree?


Wave to her





As for a Course, I'd love to take one, and was seriously considering it when we thought we had an extra course booked, but I just found out today that I'd be yelled at for modulating my front brake, or keeping a finger on it at slow speeds.
you better not end up in my class buddy! I'll know who u are modulating that damn brake and unload some shit on you!!

;)

Cheers
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Old 04-22-2013, 06:57 PM   #39
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[QUOTE=390beretta;21237017]I'll probably get cut off for posting this, but can't help it LOL! All three times at two or three miles per hour. First one was in BMW parking lot, she was turning to park and touched the front brake which pitched everything out of whack and she "high sided so to speak".



I win! I beat her records and been riding for a while. I got short legs.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:57 AM   #40
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I'm going to be the meanie here because someone has to say it.

Your wife lacks the physical and mental coordination to ride and should stop either permanently or until she receives further training. If her reflexes are bad at 0-3 MPH when something unexpected happens what makes you think they will be better at 60 MPH?
I wouldn't be so quick to say this...my read of the original post is that all of these incidents happened in parking/stopped situations. A Versys weighs 450lb or so and is a fairly tall bike with a 33" seat height. Very low speeds are going to be the most difficult for a woman on a tall bike. Unless she's planning to enter a trials event next week, it doesn't sound like this is a terribly dangerous problem.
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:24 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by 390beretta View Post
Said she put her left foot down to stop and "felt a pebble roll under her foot", was afraid she was going to fall so reflexively grabbed the front brake (again); you know the rest.

When I attempted to explain that when going really slow, it's probably best to not even touch the front brake, for some reason, she gave me a really dirty look!
I'm gonna go right to the foundational point here:

She was in the process of stopping, feared falling, and the forced the issue by yanking on the front brake. Bike is stopped, abruptly at lean, and gravity wins.

The problem could be the braking issue--or is it something else? Something more basic? She was afraid of losing her footing, yes? This is the same problem as slipping on oil at the gas pump or cat poop in the garage--what do you do when you feel like you're going over at looooow speed? Most folk hit the brake when they should give it some throttle. Not a lot but it'll straigthen you out and give you a chance to reapply the brakes and find better footing. If she's leaving lots of space to the front, then she has that space to clean things up.
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:28 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Tripped1 View Post
I had to to do the ERC bi-annually when I was in the military. I usually got the coaches to give up about the 4 finger thing. Usually pointing them at my front wheel and pointing out there was a pair of 120mm discs there got them to back off.
You know what, I got an idea. Let's trade bikes. You can ride my '99 Shadow 1100 and I'll ride what you bring. I'll use my 4-finger braking technique, and you do what you want on the Shadow. . . . It'll be fun to watch you unlearn your muscle memory when the SHTF.

Y' see, that's the difference between somebody that rides a (particular) motorcycle and somebody that rides motorcycles!

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Old 04-23-2013, 08:32 AM   #43
AzItLies
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Originally Posted by /dev/null View Post
I wouldn't be so quick to say this...my read of the original post is that all of these incidents happened in parking/stopped situations. A Versys weighs 450lb or so and is a fairly tall bike with a 33" seat height. Very low speeds are going to be the most difficult for a woman on a tall bike. Unless she's planning to enter a trials event next week, it doesn't sound like this is a terribly dangerous problem.
Well Said.

Agree with the other poster that further training would help.

To clarify what the MSF is trying to do re new(ish) riders:

First and foremost understand we never just grab that front brake hard, never. That's the surest way to put yourself on the ground.

Second, the technique used for the front brake is easy initially, then progressively firmer after the weight of the bike gets on the front tire.

Third, in conjunction with the above, they tell new(ish) riders to not ride around with their finger(s) on the front brake. The reasoning is simply that if and when something happens unexpectedly, the new(ish) rider will instinctively grab the front brake hard. Essentially not doing 1 & 2 above.

So the MSF is trying to get newish riders to learn something that's a bit complicated, and not that easy to understand as they're so use to braking anytime they want with their cars.

Add in the fact most of them are scared silly and petrified about crashing, you can begin to see the difficulty Rider Coaches face when trying to get new riders to get their fingers off that front brake.

Cheers
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:07 AM   #44
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MSF bashing / counter-bashing TL;DR.

OP: Eyes straight ahead and bars square before the bike stops. Every time. That ensures the bike isn't leaning, so there's no huge weight to hold up. This may have to come from a third party to sink in. An ERC, perhaps, after which Mrs Beretta will come home and say "Honey, they told me what I was doing that caused me to drop the bike..."
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:21 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by AzItLies View Post
Third, in conjunction with the above, they tell new(ish) riders to not ride around with their finger(s) on the front brake. The reasoning is simply that if and when something happens unexpectedly, the new(ish) rider will instinctively grab the front brake hard. Essentially not doing 1 & 2 above.
I'm going to pick a nit.

They won't "instinctively grab the brake"- they will simply tense up. This may seem like a fine point of distinction, but That's why you want the rider's right hand ON THE THROTTLE, where it will do no harm, and the left hand OVER THE CLUTCH, where it can do some good.

Disclaimer: I don't speak for the MSF.
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