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Old 04-23-2013, 10:26 AM   #46
shaddix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDI View Post
You know what, I got an idea. Let's trade bikes. You can ride my '99 Shadow 1100 and I'll ride what you bring. I'll use my 4-finger braking technique, and you do what you want on the Shadow. . . . It'll be fun to watch you unlearn your muscle memory when the SHTF.

Y' see, that's the difference between somebody that rides a (particular) motorcycle and somebody that rides motorcycles!

GDI
Your reaction time is slower by not having the front brake covered
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:41 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
Your reaction time is slower by not having the front brake covered
Granted. But in this situation it allowed her to do exactly what her first panicked thought was:

Hang on. TIGHT.

In this situation it's hard not to cover the brake simply because you're stopping and going and crawling along.

Brakes are the wrong thing because it stops the bike dead, at lean, with clear uncertainty about where her foot was. Like stepping on a Lego hiding in the carpet while you're barefoot--you don't want to put your full weight down. Which in this case is a force multiplier working for gravity.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:13 AM   #48
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I'm going to pick a nit.

They won't "instinctively grab the brake"- they will simply tense up. This may seem like a fine point of distinction, but That's why you want the rider's right hand ON THE THROTTLE, where it will do no harm, and the left hand OVER THE CLUTCH, where it can do some good.

Disclaimer: I don't speak for the MSF.
No, they will instinctively grab the brake because they're scared they are going to crash. I've seen it 1,000's of times.

And yes, we tell them it's either braking or throttle, never both. And yes we tell them to cover the clutch.

I'm not here to write a book on everything covered in the Class. We were talking specifically about using the front brake, not to cover it etc.

The BRC is about 5 hrs of class time and 10 hrs of range time, WAY too much to cover in a thread like this.

And there's no reason to yell buddy, none whatsoever.

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Old 04-23-2013, 11:25 AM   #49
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Your reaction time is slower by not having the front brake covered
Yes, and that's why, if you re read what has been said, the MSF will say in an intersection (where most crashes occur) to "cover the controls".

The reason they don't recommend new riders riding around all the time with it covered is because they NEED that slight delay to (hopefully) have their brain click in and say "Don't GRAB it!!!"

Re reading the OP's original post should really make it clear that this sort of thing is not uncommon, not at all. His wife is experiencing pretty much what all new(ish) riders experience.

Hell, recently had a guy in an ERC, big guy, on a big ass Honda Rune. Came flying down during the emer braking test, prob 5 or 10 mph faster then we told them to get to, and grabbed both brakes as hard as he could and instantly slammed himself and the bike down. Instantly, fraction of a second.

No ambulance needed, fortunately. Not always the case.

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Old 04-23-2013, 12:39 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by AzItLies View Post
Yes, and that's why, if you re read what has been said, the MSF will say in an intersection (where most crashes occur) to "cover the controls".

The reason they don't recommend new riders riding around all the time with it covered is because they NEED that slight delay to (hopefully) have their brain click in and say "Don't GRAB it!!!"
Can you explain to me how these two statements are not mutually exclusive?
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:20 PM   #51
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Can you explain to me how these two statements are not mutually exclusive?
It's the quiet difference of "Fully Alert and primed" and "Fully Alert and Ready"... Kind of the difference between having your finger on the trigger or not.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:44 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
Your reaction time is slower by not having the front brake covered
Agreed.

The issue isn't whether the brake is covered or not. The issue is that the one finger is not effective on all bikes. There isn't time to go from one finger to all four. If there had been time, you wouldn't have needed to cover the brake in the first place!

GDI
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:06 PM   #53
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It happens to best of us, no big thing. Lot of blokes, when asked if they ever dropped the bike, will say no, never, after thinking a bit, oh yeah, except that one time at the gas station or on inclined drive way. If she keeps doing it, then it might be the '....isn't for everyone'.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:10 PM   #54
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Agreed.

The issue isn't whether the brake is covered or not. The issue is that the one finger is not effective on all bikes. There isn't time to go from one finger to all four. If there had been time, you wouldn't have needed to cover the brake in the first place!

GDI
I would submit those bikes need modification to allow you to ride them with the front brake covered
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:11 PM   #55
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It's the quiet difference of "Fully Alert and primed" and "Fully Alert and Ready"... Kind of the difference between having your finger on the trigger or not.
So practice allows them to not grab in an intersection but practice has no effect to allow them to avoid grabbing in a corner?

Seems hard to believe.

I would offer that they are going to grab if startled no matter in a corner or straight up and down. The thing to do is break them of grabbing the brake in any situation, not tell them to not cover it so it takes them longer to execute their poor technique.

shaddix screwed with this post 04-23-2013 at 03:16 PM
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:24 PM   #56
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I would submit those bikes need modification to allow you to ride them with the front brake covered
The counter is--How? From an engineering point of view it's possible to have switchable mapping on an EFI ECU--it's a matter of software. In this situation you're now discussing hardware and design issues. Prohibitively expense and the problem can (on the range at least) be cured by simply not covering the brake. Occam's Razor.


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So practice allows them to not grab in an intersection but practice has no effect to allow them to avoid grabbing in a corner?
This is a very, very famous photo:



I would submit that if you look at the trigger finger of this officer you'll notice it's not on the trigger but in a "safe" position. To shoot he needs to make the conscious decision to pull the trigger. It's the same principle used by all systems I've seen used to train beginner riders. It forces you to think about what you're doing instead of blindly reacting with an instinctive contraction of your muscles.

Thinking gives them just enough time to avert making that poor technique mistake.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:34 PM   #57
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The counter is--How? From an engineering point of view it's possible to have switchable mapping on an EFI ECU--it's a matter of software. In this situation you're now discussing hardware and design issues. Prohibitively expense and the problem can (on the range at least) be cured by simply not covering the brake. Occam's Razor.




This is a very, very famous photo:



I would submit that if you look at the trigger finger of this officer you'll notice it's not on the trigger but in a "safe" position. To shoot he needs to make the conscious decision to pull the trigger. It's the same principle used by all systems I've seen used to train beginner riders. It forces you to think about what you're doing instead of blindly reacting with an instinctive contraction of your muscles.

Thinking gives them just enough time to avert making that poor technique mistake.
Ask the KLR guys how to add braking power, it isn't impossible.

The difference in pulling a trigger and using the brakes is that properly used, the brakes do not have poor consequences, upright or leaned over. They only have poor consequences when used improperly. It seems to me you're suggesting the MSF teaches poor techniques and then a coping strategy(don't cover the front) to avoid misapplying that technique.

And using poor technique for the sake of range convenience sounds preposterous, especially given how militant you guys make yourselves appear to be about starting with good technique from the start.

shaddix screwed with this post 04-23-2013 at 03:43 PM
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:51 PM   #58
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Take her off road and in gravel.. see how much she likes that front brake after a day of that.

I've never dropped a single bike unless you count one sliding out from under you due to mud at low speeds. First time I took my klx450r out I did the one legged handlebar holding deal 3 times in 5 minutes.

Kudos to your wife though, most folks would be discouraged by now.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:57 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
Ask the KLR guys how to add braking power, it isn't impossible.
Not quite sure what this means...

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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
The difference in pulling a trigger and using the brakes is that properly used, the brakes do not have poor consequences, upright or leaned over. They only have poor consequences when used improperly. It seems to me you're suggesting the MSF teaches poor techniques and then a coping strategy(don't cover the front) to avoid misapplying that technique.
So...a trigger can't be improperly used? I'm not suggesting the MSF teaches poor technique. I'm only suggesting that the OPs original situation is an excellent example of poorly executed braking because of the panic (contraction) reaction. Brakes should never be grabbed, stabbed, yanked or whacked.

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And using poor technique for the sake of range convenience sounds preposterous, especially given how militant you guys make yourselves appear to be about starting with good technique from the start.
I'm afraid I don't see this as using poor technique for convenience, it's for safety. Both for rider and instructor. In the MSF curriculum I was originally trained in and in the Oregon/Idaho curriculum it's very clear that on the street covering the front is a time saving device. On the range, with raw beginners, it simply decreases risk of falling.
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:03 PM   #60
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Not quite sure what this means...



So...a trigger can't be improperly used? I'm not suggesting the MSF teaches poor technique. I'm only suggesting that the OPs original situation is an excellent example of poorly executed braking because of the panic (contraction) reaction. Brakes should never be grabbed, stabbed, yanked or whacked.



I'm afraid I don't see this as using poor technique for convenience, it's for safety. Both for rider and instructor. In the MSF curriculum I was originally trained in and in the Oregon/Idaho curriculum it's very clear that on the street covering the front is a time saving device. On the range, with raw beginners, it simply decreases risk of falling.
A trigger can be improperly used, but you're talking about the situations in which it is used, not how. If you yank the trigger that's poor technique and may have poor consequences.

Shooting when you didn't intend to also has poor consequences. That doesn't mean you had to use poor technique.

The problem with newbies braking is not doing it at the wrong time, but doing it with poor technique.

Decreases the risk of falling on the range and builds a poor habit that increases braking reaction times on the street. Great job MSF
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