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Old 04-26-2013, 06:17 PM   #16
UtahDirt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
I think you're still missing the point, if you removed all the folks that have the potential to kill a rider due to a SMIDSY, you would have nobody left on the road except for other riders. *Everyone* has the potential to SMIDSY you, just because they haven't done it yet does not mean they are a responsible driver. Just because someone has done it doesn't make them an irresponsible driver.
I don't see any discussion about removing potential killers in a precrime scenario. How about removing the ones who have murdered a biker? You are making an odd argument.
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Old 04-26-2013, 06:18 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
I think you're still missing the point, if you removed all the folks that have the potential to kill a rider due to a SMIDSY, you would have nobody left on the road except for other riders. *Everyone* has the potential to SMIDSY you, just because they haven't done it yet does not mean they are a responsible driver. Just because someone has done it doesn't make them an irresponsible driver.
I get what your saying.

If you make an honest effort to pay careful attention, you will not miss the motorcycle....bottom line. Even as difficult as we are to see, if you turn and say "I am looking for a car, a horse, a motorcycle, a dog, a bicycle, whatever" then you are not going to miss it. You can tell me otherwise, but I will never buy it.

The issue lie in 1) people do not pay attention...not just to driving, but to everything 2) people do not care enough about other people. Again, not just in driving, but in everything.

Very sorry for your loss of a friend. The 20 year old is an asshole, but punishment wont bring him back, remember that.

Forgiveness is an incredible thing
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Old 04-26-2013, 06:29 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by UtahDirt View Post
I don't see any discussion about removing potential killers in a precrime scenario. How about removing the ones who have murdered a biker? You are making an odd argument.
I don't see any difference between the ones who have murdered a biker due to the fact the way the human brain perceives movement that prevents them from realizing a motorcycle is approaching and the ones who have not murdered a biker for that reason. If they are driving negligently and kill a biker that is different. I'm not saying let drunks off the hook, but when the fault lies in the nature of how human beings perceive movement, that isn't something that should be prosecuted IMO. They could be paying perfect attention and still murder a biker. Did everything right but still killed someone. What purpose does charging that individual with manslaughter serve other than revenge? They are no more or less dangerous than anyone else on the road, the fault lies in the ability of the brain to recognize the object, it has nothing to do with that individual's ability to safely operate a vehicle.

The point I am trying to make is that the experts on these types of accidents say there is nothing the driver could have done to allow him to see the biker. And everyone on the road is capable of doing this. It would be like charging someone for manslaughter when they had an epileptic seizure or a sudden aneurism and ran a bike off the road in the process.
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Old 04-26-2013, 06:32 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by NesquikNinja View Post
If you make an honest effort to pay careful attention, you will not miss the motorcycle....bottom line. Even as difficult as we are to see, if you turn and say "I am looking for a car, a horse, a motorcycle, a dog, a bicycle, whatever" then you are not going to miss it. You can tell me otherwise, but I will never buy it.
I sincerely hope this is the case, and if true I never have to worry about being guilty of a SMIDSY. I defer my opinion about this to people who have studied it in-depth though, so it will continue to haunt me that I may someday kill a rider I didn't see, three seconds after I looked directly at him.
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Old 04-26-2013, 07:12 PM   #20
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I say we advocate for locomotive type lighting, (spiraling spotlight) being added as standard equipment on bikes. Then if someone pulls a SMIDSY ........throw the book at them!
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Old 04-26-2013, 07:20 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
Every driver on the road is dangerous, none of them intend to or want to kill anyone. They are going to pull out in front of bikes and kill riders and there's absolutely nothing the law can do about it. Nothing. You could make it so the punishment is 10 years of torture and their whole family gets killed by the state, wouldn't matter. Everyone would be terrified of hitting a rider, but they would still do it, because there's nothing the driver can do about it. Given that fact of life, by charging each one that is unlucky enough to kill a rider with manslaughter, you aren't improving the situation for riders by doing this at all. You would simply be exacting vengeance and wasting money.

For the folks that are deliberately negligent and kill a biker, such as speeding 20 over around a blind corner and killing a rider waiting to turn left, lock them up forever, sure. But performing a normal maneuver because they literally can not see the rider shouldn't be grounds for any kind of severe punishment.

put the crack pipe down ,shaddix.
your brain is already FRIED.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:14 PM   #22
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Anyone thinking that prosecuting a driver with a particularly harsh penalty, who wasn't chemically impaired by the law, and just 'didn't see them'; Ought to have their head examined, because obviously you're not thinking clearly.

It could happen to anyone. It happens all the time, it happens to me on a weekly, sometimes daily basis, someone is always fuckin pulling out in front of me, crossing over head-on into the lane in front of me, or just generally being a jackass with ridiculous maneuvers. That 20 year old could just as easily be that old lady in a crown vic or a good ole boy in a pickup. Just because he's a young male, doesn't mean he meant to kill your friend.

That 20 year old 'scumbag' killed a person he didn't intend to kill, he is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life. He's going to need a lot more weed. He's probably not some hardened gangbanger devoid of human compassion, it has probably fucked him up pretty badly.

If you want to fuck with him, find him and tell him why your friend was such a great guy. If you do anything else, rest assured the punishment for a premeditated crime will be swift and harsh.

The money spent pursuing him with pointless legal punishments, and the energy your wasting complaining about the lack of punishment for his crime, could better be spent trying to educate the public to share the road and that motorcyclists are out there. Seriously, public education is the only thing that is going to help with this problem. I'm sorry for the loss of your friend, but destroying another life isn't going to bring him back. We need to get people's eyes off their cellphones and back on the road.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:18 PM   #23
troidus
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
The point I am trying to make is that the experts on these types of accidents say there is nothing the driver could have done to allow him to see the biker.
That's bullshit. The problem is the people who glance at, rather than observe, their surroundings. Do more than a quick head check. Look not just at near-field items, but also shift your focus so that you're looking up the road (and sidewalk) and move your head side-to-side to get out from behind the roof pillars and mirrors and to give you parallax to detect oncoming objects. Catalog everything in your field of vision, do the same in the other available directions of travel, then repeat and compare the new observations to the previous ones to see if something you thought wasn't moving, is. *Then* proceed if it is safe to do so.
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:49 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Snarky View Post
Anyone thinking that prosecuting a driver with a particularly harsh penalty, who wasn't chemically impaired by the law, and just 'didn't see them'; Ought to have their head examined, because obviously you're not thinking clearly.

It could happen to anyone. It happens all the time, it happens to me on a weekly, sometimes daily basis, someone is always fuckin pulling out in front of me, crossing over head-on into the lane in front of me, or just generally being a jackass with ridiculous maneuvers. That 20 year old could just as easily be that old lady in a crown vic or a good ole boy in a pickup. Just because he's a young male, doesn't mean he meant to kill your friend.

That 20 year old 'scumbag' killed a person he didn't intend to kill, he is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life. He's going to need a lot more weed. He's probably not some hardened gangbanger devoid of human compassion, it has probably fucked him up pretty badly.

If you want to fuck with him, find him and tell him why your friend was such a great guy. If you do anything else, rest assured the punishment for a premeditated crime will be swift and harsh.

The money spent pursuing him with pointless legal punishments, and the energy your wasting complaining about the lack of punishment for his crime, could better be spent trying to educate the public to share the road and that motorcyclists are out there. Seriously, public education is the only thing that is going to help with this problem. I'm sorry for the loss of your friend, but destroying another life isn't going to bring him back. We need to get people's eyes off their cellphones and back on the road.
This, I really don't think that people making mistakes is something that we should be ruining lives over.

Yes he took a life by not being as good a driver as he could have been.

Throwing the book at him isn't going to save anyone. 99% of people would be significantly affected if they took a life and that alone would probably make them much more careful in the future.

Do I want to exact vengeance on people when they almost kill me? Yes.

Would it be productive or good? Absolutely not.

I settle for a honk, or shaking fist or flipping bird and get on with my life.

As a motorcyclist someday I might die on my bike. I hope not. If I die because of a silly mistake I wouldn't want to ruin anyone elses life in addition to mine.
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:23 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by troidus View Post
That's bullshit. The problem is the people who glance at, rather than observe, their surroundings. Do more than a quick head check. Look not just at near-field items, but also shift your focus so that you're looking up the road (and sidewalk) and move your head side-to-side to get out from behind the roof pillars and mirrors and to give you parallax to detect oncoming objects. Catalog everything in your field of vision, do the same in the other available directions of travel, then repeat and compare the new observations to the previous ones to see if something you thought wasn't moving, is. *Then* proceed if it is safe to do so.
Is anything you said taught in drivers ed? Is this on the road test at the DMV? No? Then how are you going to prosecute people for not doing it?

Even still, your eyes are not foolproof, http://www.msf-usa.org/motion.html You may eventually miss something even being as diligent as you are. Drivers should be taught to rock back and forth in their seat as well, but until that's on the DMV test you can't really blame people for the inability to compensate for a physical shortcoming of human perception.
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:57 AM   #26
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Is anything you said taught in drivers ed? Is this on the road test at the DMV? No? Then how are you going to prosecute people for not doing it?
Very simple. It's all down in black and white. It's known as the law. One of the conditions attached to the issue of a driver's license is that the recipient know and obey the laws regarding driving. Anyone can download the traffic laws of their state online. It has nothing to do with driver's ed or the road test. You seem to have a fuzzy understanding of the term "personal responsibility".

Any punishment given for traffic offenses is done to get the person's attention and hopefully change his behavior in the future. Sometimes a time-out is sufficient, but others can need a 2X4 upside the head.

The driver's licensing procedure in the USA is still abysmal, even though some improvements have been made. What we need is a system similar to Germany's. Getting a license there is much more difficult than it is here. Almost everyone signs up with a driving academy.
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:07 AM   #27
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Any punishment given for traffic offenses is done to get the person's attention and hopefully change his behavior in the future. Sometimes a time-out is sufficient, but others can need a 2X4 upside the head.
But the punishment has no effect, because their behavior was not at fault, there's nothing to correct. Their behavior was not at fault, but someone still died. Does that statement confuse you?

shaddix screwed with this post 04-27-2013 at 08:45 AM
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:24 AM   #28
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But the punishment has no effect, because their behavior was not at fault, there's nothing to correct. Their behavior was not at fault, but someone still died. Does that statement confuse you?
It does not confuse me, I just do not agree.

I personally have slowly become less of a skeptic on the "big picture- society is to blame idea" and can say I think SMIDSY accidents are caused by how people are progressively having shorter attention spans and the way people live their life is focused far too little on making the world a better place and actually being a good person and caring for others.

Put simply, people look for danger, do not see it, and proceed- then the accident occurs. If they had woke up that morning with real intentions of keeping an eye out for their fellow man (or woman), they may have taken a second glance and actually LOOKED for something other than a car.

I used to be so skeptical- looking at the big picture is a recent thing for me.

Sorry for my rambling but the bottom line is if each driver was focused on nothing but safe driving and getting everyone home that night, accidents would not be so frequent. Instead we are focused on getting there on time, enjoying our music, or cell phones, or weed....
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:35 PM   #29
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I just do not understand how people can state that they did not see something nearly the size of a refrigerator that also has a light out front. Using the "I didn't see him" defense is just the item that needs broken down and destroyed. If they did not see the motorcycle, then first off they obviously cannot see smaller items. Stop Signs, Red lights, people. If the reply is that they have had a clean driving record, and have never hit anything else, then perhaps there was a modifier such as bright sun in eyes, or hidden around a curve, but to say they did not see the motorcycle, plus they have a history of hitting other objects, then the verdict needs to be murder. The bright sun and curve also has ramifications related to proceeding safely, but that is not going to be the point of my post. A driver with a history of collisions even minor or backing-up, shows a level of carelessness and acceptability of risk that needs to be factored into the cause. This carelessness also denotes a level of driver responsibility for his/her actions. If they know that they can get a slap on the wrist, they will acknowledge a level of acceptability to the action. So what if I hit a motorcyclist or pedestrian, I can claim I did not see him. So it then it becomes an acceptable situation to be careless. THIS NEEDS BROKEN DOWN AND DESTROYED. Its the same as writing a bad check. To some people it is totally acceptable to write a bad check. They justify it by thinking that hey the paycheck will be in before the store cashes it (risk), or they dont give a damn about the finances and want the new rims more than the responsibility of paying for it. Society contributes to this mantra by awarding everyone a trophy these days. So what if you did not earn it, you get a trophy to keep you from feeling bad. Awe poor child, I know that you feel bad for hitting the pedestrian, so lets just take a few days off and hope you feel better.

This shit cannot continue. Stupidity and irresponsibility no matter what the situation, should have some amount of pain and repercussion. WE mandate harsh punishment for the drunk driver, why dont we punish the narcissist?

I'm preaching to the choir, but the legal system and society needs to recognize that giving out do-overs, and wrist slaps is a negative that will have impact in other areas of life. I'll push one more button. Its the same mentality that lets our government get by without passing a budget. It nees to stop.
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:22 PM   #30
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short version.
some laws require intent. (murder)
some laws do not. just a responsibility for an act. (manslaughter)

theres the difference

still, sorry for the loss of your friend.
since the driver at fault has refused previous plea attempts, that has screwed him. he should have taken the first one. i wish you and his family the best on it.
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