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Old 04-28-2013, 06:54 PM   #46
GrahamD
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Originally Posted by Ulyssessix View Post
Comparing a Tenere to a Super Tenere would be like comparing a F650GS to a R1200GS. They share a name/designation only.
Put an R80GS next to an R1200GS. They share the GS moniker in name only.
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Old 04-28-2013, 08:20 PM   #47
Ulyssessix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamD View Post
Put an R80GS next to an R1200GS. They share the GS moniker in name only.
True, but at least there is a direct lineage between the two. The Super Tenere was a clean sheet first generation, not a progression upgrades and generations that link the R80GS to the present "advanced liquid cooled" R1200GS. No such lineage is shared between the Tenere and the S10 that shares its name.
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Old 04-28-2013, 08:54 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
Nice.

I've read many "debates" here about motorcycles, where people get personal about their choice of a motorcycle. I love it when people articulate their opinion to elevate their choice or to downgrade other people's choices. It is an art form.

I find it revealing, it is a characteristic of human nature, how easily people are influenced by other people's opinion, especially the ones that have, in their perception, more credentials than they do. It could be journalists, it could be a fellow rider who happens to be an excellent rider. Or someone who writes well and convincingly.

And it is interesting also to see how on these debates people want others to corroborate with their choice, so they feel their choice is justified. That's when they try to convince others that the rational they followed for choosing their bike is undoubtedly the most reasonable of all of the rationals and their bike is the best bike.

But it is always fun. And I admit, I always learn something about the bikes in question from these debates, after filtering potential biases, of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pluric View Post
I was out riding off road today. 3 KTM 990s a GS800 and my Tenere. Came up to a guy
on a vintage tote-gote. Had the biggest grin on his face bouncing around with no suspension
and a Briggs&Stratton power source. We are too fucking spoiled to know it.



Couldn't agree more with above. Well said!
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Old 04-28-2013, 08:57 PM   #49
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Haven't seen the other MCN - Motorcycle Consumer News - mentioned... I've subscribed for about ten years and have found their bike reviews and comparisons balanced and valuable.
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:35 AM   #50
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What I noticed was the electronics bit.

In previous reviews, the perfectly working (and free) ABS & traction control on the S10, where disregarded as not really adding anything and just being in the way and intrusive. (even if it does work really well, who needs it)
That is, if it is even mentioned at all.
In this new test it is played down as yeah, yeah it is working, but ehm, not impressive or anything, it functions as it should, but nothing to shout about.

(I do not know what the guy is doing in the video, on that last corner while he is saying this, but I really suck off-road and even I never would have messed up a turn as clumsy as that. Especially when you are supposed to be the pro and your being filmed. The way they edited that with that comment, (deliberately?) makes it LOOK like a completelly useless bike off-road)

But now that BMW has also made there ABS & TS work properlly, it is suddenlly an incredebly usefull and important feature when going off-road?
I love how he says : "and the impressive part is that it actually works off-road, which is quit new" ??? (yes, for BMW it is)
The outdated ??? electronics on the S10, is suddenlly the main reason why the BMW is in a completelly different league?

If you have a completly blinding hard-on for the GS, then TS & ABS that actually work, might suddenly impress the hell out of you, but it is nothing new.
You just did not want to see it on the S10.




Myself I went for a S10 about a month ago. (as you might have guessed)
The new GS and especially the KTM might be better (more powerfull at least), but they also might not.
Time will tell, but I needed a bike now.
(and not just for a 3 hour test drive, but for dailly usage)
It might sound strange but the others are just too brandnew.
While the "outdated" S10 has not had any major issues in 3 years.
(after the imidiate recalls, I did not even consider the new GS as an option)

Plus : I can't affort the frequent maintanence cost provided by these posh dealers.
Then again, if these overpriced bikes apparently need to be serviced every other week, then at least the coffee should be good.

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Old 04-30-2013, 07:53 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_404 View Post
What I noticed was the electronics bit.

In previous reviews the perfectly working (and free) ABS & traction control on the S10, where disregarded as not really adding anything and just being in the way and intrusive. (even if it does work really well, who needs it)
And that is, if it is even mentioned at all.
Now that the BMW has also made there ABS & TS work properlly, it is suddenlly an incredebly usefull and important feature when going off-road?
The outdated ??? electronics on the S10, is suddenlly the main reason why the BMW and the KTM are in a completelly different league?


Plus : I can't affort the frequent maintanence cost provided by these posh dealers.
Then again, if these overpriced bikes apparently need to be serviced every other week, then at least the coffee should be good.
+1 I was about to make the same comment about the lack of enthusiasm when the XT1200Z was released in 2010. Three years later the press is gaga about the latest, greatest fix from BMW, KTM. It is impressive they have made an attempt to catch up THREE YEARS LATE but to impress me they need to put product on the road that doesn't require the owner to be a mechanic/banker to pull off a season of riding.
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:14 AM   #52
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Note, that terms "ABS" or "Traction Control" can refer to very, very different technical solutions, that also work in a different manner compared to one another. ABS activation on loose or bumpy surfaces is a good example, one bike may stop very well, while the other feels like its brakes aren't working at all. I tried a Crosstourer, and for me its TC sucked on gravel, it just effectively cut off all drive to keep the backwheel from stepping out. Dunno, but maybe KTM&BMW have the most advanced electronic systems at the moment?
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:44 AM   #53
Martin_404
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
Note, that terms "ABS" or "Traction Control" can refer to very, very different technical solutions, that also work in a different manner compared to one another. ABS activation on loose or bumpy surfaces is a good example, one bike may stop very well, while the other feels like its brakes aren't working at all. I tried a Crosstourer, and for me its TC sucked on gravel, it just effectively cut off all drive to keep the backwheel from stepping out. Dunno, but maybe KTM&BMW have the most advanced electronic systems at the moment?
You are right.
The thing is, that every review I have read and viewed, pretty much concludes that both TC and ABS on the S10 work very good off-road. (and I have viewed them all)
"finally someone was able to nail it"

Yamaha even sold the ABS as being so good, that there would never be a reason to turn it of when off-road.
Proffecional off-road riders did agree that it is indeed very, very good, but on really steep off-road declines, you should be able to turn it off, so you can completelly lock the rear brake.
They are right, but a "normal" S10 rider will never be on a hill that steep, with their 1200CC bike.
These heavy duty guys will turn it all off on any bike anyway, no matter how good it is.
(on a S10 you can, by letting it run in 1rst gear for a minute on the centerstand, or by adding you own 5 euro switch)

S10 TC also works perfectlly.
You normally only notice it, because a light will go on on your dash (hey, the traction controll was on?), but you do not feel it at all.
When you turn it off, you notice the difference.
Off-road I also turn it off, because that is more fun to let the rear slide (and I am very un-experienced), but if I want/need support and stability, it simply works.

Maybe it is "even better" on the new BMW & KTM.
I have not tested them.
But I really can not imagine they could make it better in a way that you really have a noticible difference.

I'd like to see a test on that.
TC will always be a matter of what feels best to the individual rider.
(it's always going to be to intrusive, or to wild)
However, how good the ABS works on gravel, you can test very acurate.
2 bikes, same speed, brake.

Can anyone here do that test for us?

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Old 04-30-2013, 10:59 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_404 View Post
You are right.
The thing is, that every review I have read and viewed, pretty much concludes that both TC and ABS on the S10 work very good off-road. (and I have viewed them all)
"finally someone was able to nail it"
Yamaha even sold the ABS as being so good, that there would never be a reason to turn it of when off-road.
Proffecional off-road riders did agree that it is indeed very, very good, but on really steep off-road declines, you should be able to turn it off.
They are right, but a "normal" S10 rider will never be on a hill that steep, with their 1200CC bike.
You can, by letting it run in 1rst gear for a minute on the centerstand, or by adding you own 5 euro switch.

TC also works perfectlly.

Maybe it is even better on the new BMW & KTM.
I have not tested them.
But I really can not imagine they could make it better in a way that you really have a noticible difference.

I'd like to see a test on that.
TC will always be a matter of what feels best to the individual rider.
(it's always going to be to intrusive, or to wild)
However, how good the ABS works you can test very acurate.
2 bikes, same speed, brake.

Can anyone here do that test for us?
This last weekend we were playing around off road. Someone wanted to go up a hill
for the view point. Turned out to get steeper and looser as we climbed. This isn't even the
bad spot. I'd just come down on the Tenere and the KTM rider had dropped his bike a couple
times so I walked back to ride it down for him. I'd never even thought twice about the ABS on
the Tenere before going down the hill. It's just been a total non issue for me. Never free rolls
or any hint of not braking when I need it. I didn't install the ABS on/off switch because it
works so well even in loose conditions.

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Old 04-30-2013, 01:20 PM   #55
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Just to make sure I was not talking rubish, I did a number of quick extra test on dirt/gravel roads.

Being able to just yank the breaks at "full" speed on gravel, without worrying about a thing, is very comfortable for a loser like me.
The ABS just takes over in a great way. (no shocks or anything)
No matter how hard I pull the front brake, it will not slide.
Instead, it applies exactlly enough pressure to both front and rear, to ensure that you stop ASAP

Also just got it to go to my personal S10 highest speed limit of 229Km/h
It got there quick enough and it would have gone just that 1 Km faster, but there was a turn and it was getting dark.
Apparentlly the GS and KTM totally outclass the S10 at high speeds, but I'm not sure I want/need to go faster. (maybe once or twice a year when I'm being extra stupid)

Edit: I just saw a twisties video of the new KTM and it does look like a lot of fun!

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Old 04-30-2013, 04:22 PM   #56
GrahamD
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YAMAHA was developing the bike when the latest Generation ABS was available. BMW etc still had the older systems.

Now they all run the latest stuff. The YAMAHA works well off road. I assume the BMW and anyone else with the latest stuff will work as well. By the way the YAMAHA has a German sourced system as well, so what we may be talking about here is the software set up mainly.

I made the prediction that as soon as BMW got it right that it would suddenly be a revelation. Something that MCN didn't want to know much about three years ago.

However three years ago South Africans, Australians and US reviewers were praising the fact that it works on the YAMAHA.
All MCN could do was complain about the lack of an ABS off switch. The Vstroms also work pretty well off road as well and have done for a while.
As usual the way they are set up will vary, but as S10 and Vstrom owners know, ABS has been able to work well off road for a while.

Now if Mottorad in Germany would do another one of their fine ABS tests, we may be able to get some fine detail on that. It would be good to see.

In the end, whatever is done on any bike, the rider still has to get to know where their bike's limits are. At some point the ABS / UBS or whatever particular combination of braking / linking the bike employs will come up against its limits.

That is up to the owner to learn. If the S10 is any indication many people will probably not find that limit. If you do, again if the S10 is any indication, it doesn't cost much to install a switch OR learn a technique for dealing with it.

But at least the point has been reached where the systems are now pretty useful in a large range of conditions and it now means that more people will probably be safer in more conditions.

Thirdly, where a manufacturer defaults the settings and how the ergonomics work for the rider would be a better discussion for reviewers. This is something that BMW usually gets right (ish).

Do you get stuck on the side of the road for five minutes sifting through menu's to find the ABS / TC features if any?
Is it actually necessary to sit on the side of the road for five minutes to find the ABS off menu item most off the time?
Does the bike actually have a facility to switch TC on the fly?
When things fail to they degrade gracefully?
Should the "handle bar" be renamed the "switch bar"?
Is the switch gear "water proof" and "dust proof" or not?
Does the average Joe have the concentration span to cope anyway?
Don't tell me brand X has a reputation for reliability when clearly it doesn't.

Is it more about selling the latest models for the advertising? Keeping the industry churning product.

So magazines, if you want my money you will save me time and get down to some detailed business. If you want to do video's do some that back up what you are saying. If you think ABS should be off show where and how you got into trouble and why brand Y didn't. Sure have some fun as well, put a hole in a scavenger plate if you want. Bend some rims. Crack some cylinder covers.but at least show in detail the circumstances that would lead to that.

The late Kevin Ash did a great job of trying to back up what he said with facts and research. He printed articles explaining what the technology does and why it works or doesn't. He educated me. Aspire to that please.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:46 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by RaY YreKa View Post
This.

And these bikes are monstrously expensive.

Who the hell would risk them on our crappy 'off-roading'?
I do : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdbK_...HdhcQ&index=21







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Old 05-01-2013, 03:54 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulyssessix View Post
In the context of this comparison, the article was discussing big bore adventure bikes. The Tenere may be as old as the original GS, but not the Super Tenere. Comparing a Tenere to a Super Tenere would be like comparing a F650GS to a R1200GS. They share a name/designation only. Even in Yamaha's website they differ the Super Tenere as an adventure bike and the Tenere as a dual sport. And sadly no, the Tenere is not available in the US.
To say- I want the safest, most reliable, maintenance free bike I can lay my hands on. This Tenere has fit the bill. I like the GS's, I really like the KTM's. But this Tenere un-biased opinion is working. And working great. Trust me i wanted the new KTM 1190, but when I am riding with my daughter I need safe reliability that trumps all other aspects in my particular riding set up. If I was going to go on a ride balls out no passenger 100+ mph through the desert for 300 miles straight then maybe I would look at the KTM 1190 only after it has been in the states for 2 years. Besides the KTM there is no other bike that I personally would prefer over this Tenere. Yes I am a Tenere Owner and sure it would be nice to be 20 to 30 pounds lighter. But would that really make a difference i don't think so. Anything over 400 pounds is not a ideal single track. Had the KTM 640 Adventure and that was waaaay too heavy for serious single track. Will do it but shit I gained 15 pounds of muscle one year riding that thing. So my 2002 640 weighed 318 without fuel and 360 with fuel was a beast to ride on mountain bike trails with drop offs every 300 yards. So I tell you if you want a great touring adventure bike take the Yamaha, it has been my favorite. The BMW is nice but the worry of support is scary. The 1190 KTM will be bad ass but I can't afford it. This Tenere is doing the job very well. And the money saved riding it rather then prepping and maintaining is saving me tons verses BMW and KTM.

One last thing. I hate it when they compare the BMW GS against the Tenere. They should compare the GS adventure with the Tenere. The Tenere is yamahas Adventure version. Yes minus the crash-bars but the Tenere is the adventure and should only be compared withe BMW' Adventure. To me the GS is a bike i would buy my girlfriend. The GS adventure is the true comparison against the Tenere. Don't see any comparison videos out there do you-- wonder why??.

boulder.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:00 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by bouldertag View Post
One last thing. I hate it when they compare the BMW GS against the Tenere. They should compare the GS adventure with the Tenere. The Tenere is yamahas Adventure version. Yes minus the crash-bars but the Tenere is the adventure and should only be compared withe BMW' Adventure. To me the GS is a bike i would buy my girlfriend. The GS adventure is bad ass bike.

boulder.
Shit, it took you a year to get your wife to let you have a Tenere.
Good luck on getting a bike for your girlfriend.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:03 PM   #60
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Shit, it took you a year to get your wife to let you have a Tenere.
Good luck on getting a bike for your girlfriend.
ha ha ha you got me!!

Rode to St. George and back and on the west freeway Pluric- a little longer but waaay better then I 15.

Shit you crack me up pluric. I just went on a rant didnt I.

So far no tire bend with me. But then I am not riding it hard like you...

he he dont go there...

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